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Gallagher99
Gallagher99, Senior Vehicle Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 3154
Experience:  SVQ LEVEL 3, QAULIFIED FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN , ATA REGISTERD ,12 YEARS EXPERIENCE
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Mondeo MK4 2008 stalling problems

Customer Question

Hi I'm having problems with my mk4.

It had an engine change as the cam snapped in 2 place and now it's not running right.

Problems are:-
1) if you tap the acceleratior when still the idel revs go up and down and then stall.
2) big puffs of black smoke

I would appreciate any help.

Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Ford
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there ,good afternoon to you
What engine is fitted to your vehicke 1.8tdci or 2.0tdci
Ok was it a brand new engine that was fitted
Is there any fault codes logged or codes that return after clearing them
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
It's a 1.8 second hand engine.
The only codes that keep popping up is the glow plus but I changed them yesterday and that code has now gone and nothing is coming up now.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi thanks
Does the engine start ok or do you feel it's struggling to start also how does it idle after it starts
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
No problems starting and idle is fine it's only when you tap the throtal the revs go up and down and then sometimes stalls, with your foot on the clutch it will stall every time and when it does stall it won't start first time it just turns over.
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there thanks
Ok as you say it stalls everytime with your foot on the clutch we could be looking at a flywheel issue causing pickup issues on the crank sensor
Have you tried adjustibg the crankshaft sensor outward slightly to see if any difference is made as I have had flywheel issues previously where by the signal using ossiliscope from the crank sensor was spiking due to an excesdivmlly worn flywheel
Also ensure the crank wiring isn't trapped in the gearbox bell housing area
Other issues that can cause problems would be the egr valve do its always worth detaching the 2x10mm bolts from the EGR feed at the inlet manifold to see if a difference is made
There is also a intake butterfly on the air inlet to the inlet manifold ensure this flap isn't being held shut (starving the engine of air )
These are a few of the things to check as you will know disgnosing this type of fault on line can be more difficult
Look forward to your reply
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

hi thanks for the reply.

I have just been out and adjusted the crank sensor and it didn't make any different (apart from not being able to use my throttle)

I took the two 10mm bolts out and still the same.

Im having problems finding the intake butterfly on the air inlet to the inlet manifold ensure this flap isn't being held shut (starving the engine of air ).

Someone told me that its a fueling problem (split in pipe somewhere) also someone has said it might just need a software update???

Do you know what sort of reading I should be getting from the MAP and MAF?

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there
The Msp sensor should read about 1.03 bar at idle (atmospheric pressure )
Does dissconnecting the MAF. Sensor make a difference
And does removing the oil cap make a difference
Also what does the turbo actuator rod do when you start the vehicle up (it should draw down slowly ) and stay down
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

if I disconnect the MAF the car will start but will stall as sson as I press the accelerator.

removing the oil cap makes no differents.

I will have a look at the actuator rod in the morning as its getting dark and its right at the back of the engine

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there no worries
Does the vehicke actually drive ie take full throttle /boost when driving
And it only happens at idle
Was the 2nd hand engine complete or did you have to swap is injectors /turbo .fuel pump
dirry for the list of questions Iam just trying to get a better feel for the issue
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

driving the car is fine, it has full power and boosts great, sometime coming to a junction but that's when its in idle again.

the engine came with the injectors and pump but I did have to swap the turbo and egr system.

I have reset the egr valve learned values

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there ,do you still have the original injectors from the old engine
As it would be advised to fit the original injectors as this seems very strange for it to occur after engine replacement
Was this from an identical vehicle or model and year
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I don't have the old injectors anymore.
It was from the same model and year.
If it was the injectors wouldn't that effect the running and power?
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi
Yes you would think so but I have seen faults that would amaze you
The reason I asked isotherm is different nozzle levels of injector online with certain pcm calibrations
Iet me look further into this for you
So to confirm if you lighty touch the throttle the revs constantly go up and down is(###) ###-####pm in conjunction with black smoke ( and then engine stalls ) this is everytime not Intermitent yes
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

if you rev the car to about 2000rpm then take your foot of the throttle the revs constantly go up and down between(###) ###-####pm (the black smoke is only under throttle) 60% of the time the car will then stall but if you do the same with your foot on the clutch then it will stall 100% of the time. the other thing is that when it stalls if you try and start it it wont start (you can let the car turn over for 3sec or 10 secs and it wont start) but if you trun the key off then back on it will start straight away.

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

just thought when the bloke put the new engine in he said that the mk4 injectors didn't need programing like the mk3 did is that right?

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there
Yes the 1.8 tdci mk4 don't require coding to the pcm
However there is a few different levels (nozzle performance numbers )
Can you try blanking the EGR off completely by fitting a plate between the EGR inlet pipe and manifold by removing the 2 x10 mm bolts and fitting a steel /metal plate instead of the gasket
To rule out any EGR issues
Has the fuel pressure been measured with the fault present
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

the lowest reading I get on the rail is 26000kpa just before it stalls(see below)

I will try blanking the egr tomorrow.

I have taken readings of the egr:-

13 seconds before it stalls

revs = 1321rpm

commanded egr % = 7.84%

egr valve duty cycle = 52.54%

egr difference between command and actual = 99.22%

fuel pressure rail = 34530kPa

3 seconds before it stalls

revs = 805rpm

commanded egr % = 0.00

egr valve duty cycle = 28.71%

egr difference between command and actual = -100.00%

fuel pressure rail = 64080

durn stalling

revs = 492rpm

commanded egr % = 0.00

egr valve duty cycle = 4.79%

egr difference between command and actual = -100.00%

fuel pressure rail = 26510kPa

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
The readings seem ok
Iam going to look further into this as it is a strange fault to occur
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

thanks you I will get back to you in the morning after ive blanked the egr and checked the actuator rod.

Thanks Again

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
No worries Paul
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

I have blanked the EGR valve and no differents apart from when driving I get the revs round to about 3500 the engine seems to struggle.

Also today I poped into ford for them to check on there machine for any fault codes but nothing showed up, they did update the software and reset the cam sensor and the air intake but its still the same.

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there good evening to you
Ok I have been looking into this issue and have discussed this with few of my fellow technicians
I suspect this may be a fuel/air mixture issue
Has the fuel filter been replaced on this vehicle
Has the fuel pressure been measured after the vehicle stalls and cranks but doesn't Fire
What is the mileage of the vehicle
Do you have the reg or vin of the vehicle the 2nd engine came out of
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the time and effort.

The Fuel filter was changed when the engine was changed.

I have just been out and measured the fuel pressure after I stalled it, when I turn the key for about the first 3 seconds its all over the place (between 6000-34000kPa) but after about 3/4 seconds it settles around 27000kPa (I tried for about 8 seconds)

The car has 240000 miles on the clock but the new engine only has about 90000 on it.

I don't have the vin or reg of the car it came out of.

Just a thought and im really hoping this has nothing to do with it but when the engine was changed the bloke lost the two bolts that hold the two a/c pipes onto the compressor so the pipes have just been tied up.

Thanks in advance

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul thanks
I am still looking into this for you as you will understand trying to diagnose this type of issue online can be more difficult than other faults
Regarding your fuel pressure readings du it build up from 60 bar to 270 bar where it settled
Can you check the tightness of the 2 bleed screws on the fuel filter housing more so the White one at the bottom as
Can cause minor air ingress to the fuel filter housing
Also with the engine running can you wiggle the wires slightly at the fuel rail pressure sensor and also the valves on the pump (metering valve and pressure regulator ) both part of the pump
To see if any dips in idle occur
Also ensure all engine breather hoses are secure /intact
I would suspect the air con pipes would be causing any adverse effects
As the air con compressor free wheels
Just make sure they aren't restricting any components
Thanks in advance
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

I totally understand just wishd you lived in north wales lol.

Where would I find the engine breather hoses?

Many thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi paul
Unfortunately iam about 8 hours from Wales lol
As you will know these issues are difficult enough to fix in a workshop diagnosing online can be difficult at times
The breather hoses are connected to the rocker cover and then go to the oil /air seperator box located on the passengers side of the cylinder head ensure all the hoses are connected
Iam going to contact my field engineer on this one today for you Paul to see if he had any similar issues across the UK in regards ***** ***** issue
And hopefully I can shed more light on this strange concern
I will post back later today Paul
Kind regards
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian.

I have checked these pipes and all are connected right.

I have also just been and swapped the fuel filter and housing from another MK4 and wiggled the wires on the 3 sensors and the fuel pipe but still no different.

Many Thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul , good evening to you
Ok I have been looking further into this issue and have spoke with my technical field engineer regarding it and we both susoect this may be down to a fuel control issue ie out of spec injectors / fuel metering control etc
I have checked in regards ***** ***** parts avaiable as there is 2 different engine Varients avaiable 100bhp and 125 bhp
However the pumps and injectors seem to be the exact same as do the turbos
However the 3 Mondeos I checked today had different emmissions level and different level injectors fitted (nozzle control level) our information is limited on this
This is why I asked for the bin of both cars to compare the components as the fault wasn't there before the engine was fitted and as you know Paul an engine is an engine whereby fuel pumps and injectors have been left from 2nd engine and this could be where our issue lies in regards to fuel metering and control as if the pcm can't cintrol the fuel metering valve correctly this is when issues start especially as once the vehicle cut out the fuel pressure was at 60 bar and was all over the place on crank
As it seems very strange for s straight forward engine replacement to cause this type of issue
I have left this with my engineer who says will look through notes to see if any other similar issues have arisen
And I will continue to look into this but a fuel metering control issue seems susceptible
As we don't know if the 2nd hand engine was left lying or its history etc
I would advise carrying out a fuel leak off test on the injectors as a preliminary test this measures how worn the injectors are in case one of the injectors is sending the metering valve out of spec
As it seems the hunting could be caused by erractic fuel pressure (black smoke due to mis combustion ) too lean/rich mixture
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi Brian.
Thanks again.
I will do a leek test tomorrow morning and get straight back to you. I do have another mk4 mondeo so if I need to try different parts I can swap from this car.
Many thanks
Paul
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
No worries Paul look forward to your reply
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

I haven't done a leak test yet but have ordered a Delphi leak off kit which will be here on Tuesday. is there anything I can do in the mean time?

Many Thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
I would test the injectors firstly as the pump and injectors were the only thing left on the 2nd hand engine
Look forward to your reply with results
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

I have just done a leak test and the injectors are fine (not really the result I wanted).

I am willing to take parts of a different MK4, if its a fuel/air mix problem what parts are best swapping?

Many Thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there Paul thanks
Ok we need to start with the MAF sensor incase this is defective but now raising any codes as this only takes minutes to swap
Next step would be the fuel metering valve as if this is faulty it could cause out issue
The problem we have there is the metering valve is part of the pump unlike the older 1.8tdci
The main concerm is it was only the fuel pump and injectors that were left on the 2nd hand engine
I know we. Tested the injectors and leak offs are fine but Iam wondering if it is worth swapping them out your other engine just to completly rule them out as this is a strange occurance
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

Tomorrow morning I will swap the injectors and the maf.

someone has said:-

"the throttle stop valve also opens and closes in relation to the accelerator pedal and if its not working correctly it could cause the car to stall when you snap the throttle, the throttle valve is controlled by a vacuum hose connected to a vacuum control solenoid valve, i would check the vacuum hose between the two valves for leaks and swap the control valve with a known good one to see if that cures the problem"

Does this mean anything to you?

Many Thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul good morning to you
Ok this was the butterfly flap I spoke of in my earlier post this has now been deleted but for some resdon remains on the transit connect (same engine )
Yours doesn't have the vacuum controlled flap only the one hide to measure boost pressure
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

I have changed the MAF but still the same. I have noticed a oil leak coming from near the turbo at the back of the engine. Im still finding out where its coming from.

Thanks Paul

Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi Brian.
Sorry I've had problems with my just answer account.
I have changed the injectors but still the same.
Many thanks
Paul
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there Paul good afternoon to you
I had continued to look over this strange issue and suskext it may be a metering valve issue or possibly the learned values needing reset ie high pressure learned values but I would have thought ford would have done this
Unfortunately the metering valve is part of the fuel pump
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi Brian,
Thanks again for all your help. Is the metering valve not piggy-backed onto the pump?
Many thanks
Paul
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
You used to be able to change the metering valve seperatly (2x25torx screws )
But now it's unfortunately part of the fuel pump (no idea why )
I have asked my engineer to look further into this for me but he hasn't got back to me
I have also spoke to several technicians about this concern who all suggest it is a fuel control/metering issue
I just find it strange there is no drivability issues
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
It drives fine it's just the stalling. This car is a taxi and i can't use it at the moment because of this fault. Is it worth taking it back to ford and ask them to reset high pressure learned values?
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
It would be worth trying this first Ali ask them to reset the KAM (keep alive memory and any other values that can be rest is injector count values )
Some resets are not avaiable the 1.8 tdci
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I have just spoken to my local ford garage and they have booked it in but the earliest date they had was 2/2 so fingers crossed.
Many thanks
Paul
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
No worries Paul
Kind regards ***** ***** a nice evening
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian.

The he car is going to ford tomorrow, you said to get the KAM reset but do you know what other values can be reset?

many thanks

Paul

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

right ive had the KAM reset but still the same. I have noticed this morning that with the car at idle the FRP is going up and down between 2000psi and 6000psi?

many thanks

paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul good afternoon to you and good to hear from you
Ok if the fuel pressure is erractic between 2000 psi=143 bar and 6000 psi= 413 bar then this indicates that the fueling is not being controlled correctly as the engine should idle at a steady 230-250 bar
I suspect this is down to the fuel metering valve on the pump as we had discussed previously but unfortunately its part of the pump and not avaiable seperatly
As I cannot see anything else which can contribute to this happening
Regards ***** *****
Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi again Brian.

right I'm in the middle of changing the fuel pump. I have locked the cam and crank and removed the cam belt and the pump pully. I have removed the bracket at the back of the pump but I can't access the 3 bolts at the front of the pump which holds it onto the engine case. On where the pully was I have 3 big hole and then round the edge I have 3 smaller one but they dont line up with the bolts on the pump?

HELP

many thanks

Paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul ,good morning to you
Ok I assume you have the long In the block to lick the crank and bar I the canshaft end
Remove the fuel pump oulley (3 bolts )
Remove the 4 torx bolts that hold the pump to inner pulley
Then using a LONG 40 mm torx socket remove the fuel pump securing bolts (you must slacken theses very evenly to gain correct access to them
Some times you have to move the torx bit /pulley up and down etc to get at them as the timing chain is in a cassette thus if the crank is locked correctly the holes must line up
On vehicles built from 2007 iris required to remove the large but on the pump to remove the pump
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Thanks Brian.

the 4 bolts torx bolts that hold the pump to the inner pulley are they accessible though the large holes on the metal thing that the pulley bolts onto?

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
Ok once you remove the 3x10mm bolts on the outer pulley and lever it off (stuck on with sealer (the one the timing belt runs on )
You will see the 4 bolts that hold the pump to the inner cassette pulley
You will also need to remove the fuel pump oil seal 10 mm nuts hold this in place and once removed you can access the securing bolts
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
I can't see the 4 bolts that hold the pump to the inner case!
it won't let me add a pic
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
I think yours has the very latest set up where it is just the big nut in the middle that hold the pump to the inner pulley
That have changed this several times and you only know once you strip it down
The issue was the change of material the pulley was made from
So remove the large nut and the 3 x40 mm torx bolts accessed through the 3 holes on the outer edge of the pulley with a long 40 mm torx socket
The nut is torqued to 50 nm
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Yeah that souns about right as I can see a big nut in the middle I will try that now

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Perfect. I have ordered another one for delivery tomorrow. Will let you know how I get on

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
No worries Paul
If you have received emails to rate my advice these are automatically generated
We can still continue in this same post even after a rating is given as this helps build my online profile
The question will still stay open
Kind regards ***** *****
Brian
Gallagher99, Senior Vehicle Technician
Category: Ford
Satisfied Customers: 3154
Experience: SVQ LEVEL 3, QAULIFIED FORD SENIOR TECHNICIAN , ATA REGISTERD ,12 YEARS EXPERIENCE
Gallagher99 and other Ford Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Brian,

good on news is I have changed the fuel pump and the car is running.

bad news is it's just like before and stalls.

can you think of anything else.

many thanks

paul

Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi there Paul I was hopeful this would Be the resolving issue and I am very disappointed it isn't
I have been over and over our communications as well as contacting field engineers and fellow master technicians about this issue we were in agreement a fuel control issue was causing this
Can you check something for me Paul
Can you check the fuel rail pressure sensor reading at ignition on with multiplug CONNECTED
Pin 1-is fuel pressure signal to the pcm (blue/brown)
Pin 2 - earth
Pin 3 - 5volt reference feed
Regards Brian
Customer: replied 2 years ago.
Hi Brian,
Sorry I don't understand what reading your after.
With the engine running and my foot still on the accelerator revs flutter between(###) ###-####pm and the FRP between 14100-72020.
I have reset the learned values but no different.
Many thanks
Paul
Expert:  Gallagher99 replied 2 years ago.
Hi Paul
If you use a multimeter and take the resdings at ignition on & idle
At the fuel rail pressure sensor on the common rail (red multiplug )
Back prob the wiring with it connected or Mick into it so as the multiplug is still connected

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