Can you attach sketch detailing the area and what is proposed?
What do deedss say about access to the front doors?
Thanks for getting back to me.
It appears I cannot attach a document via this JustAnswer screen.
I have scanned print of the property land registry and title deeds plan layout.
I also have 3 pages written in legal jargon regarding access to the pathways front and rear for the first floor and lower floor.
The neighbour downstairs always talks to people as if from a position of authority and knowledge, when if fact often the case he is wrong, and I feel he maybe wrong in this instance but I do not for sure, hence enquiry for some help.
Is there a way, which I a missing, to attach the docs which will help you more easily understand the background and query.
There is a way to attcah but I dont know how to do it becuase my pages are different than yours. Send to me at UK law via email@example.com and it will be fwd to me.
It can take up to 24hrs
I have emailed documents to XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX asking for email and documents to be forwarded to Law Denning.
These documents should make the query much easier to understand and appreciate.
Please let me know when received and we can communicate again.
Have you received my attached documents yet?
I did email them to XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX saysing to forward to Law Denning - no other reference.
Sorry no. Can you please resend and put also UK law on. There are 1,000s of experts in all sorts of cats. It makes it easier to find me. Thanks
I have sent again this morning with UK LAW on subject and in text.
The documents havejust arrived. Thank you
You have given methe freehold title plan rather than the leasehold title plan and it isdifficult for me to see any pathways or fences on such a small scale. I dohowever have, I think, the layout. The rights of access of him over your land,and you over his land are at the end of the first page of the lease and halfwaydown the second page. I must confess that they are very wishy-washy.
Before he isdeemed to have interfered with your right of access, his interference must be "substantial".It depends whether reducing the width of your access or putting a gate in wouldaffect your enjoyment/use.
He has the rightto walk over your land, as indeed you have the right to walk over his land, andthere would be nothing stopping him (if the situation was reversed) putting hisbin onto your part of the path.
The fact that youhave the right to walk over his land I'm sorry to have to tell you does notgive you the right to put anything (bin) on his part of the path.
The fact that hemay put a fence up might be an obstacle in the way of accessing drains andpiping would he cannot prevent you accessing them even if you have to go ontohis land because you have that right under the Access to Neighbouring Land Act.
Can I helpfurther?Please bear with me today because I will be online and off-line with clientsand other users and travelling.Please don't forget to positively rate my answer service (even if it was notwhat you wanted to hear) and I will follow up any further points you raise forfree.If you don't rate it positively, then the site keep your deposit and I get 0for my time. It is imperative that you give my answer a positive rating. Itdoesn't give me "a pat on the head", "good boy" (like ebay), it is mylivelihood!If in ratings you feel that you expected more or it only helped a little,please ask me for further info before rating me negatively otherwise I don'tget paid at all for my time and answer. The thread remains open.
I will need your help further as sending the documents was only to allow us to engage a little better and understand the issue eg, the fact the pathways are not shown on the Title Register or the Lease Layout Plan.
I will reply positively now and will engage with you hopefully this evening.
FYI the following is a letter which I have sent to our freeholder today, also trying to help clarify matter. The following maybe useful for yourself to understand also:-
I refer to our above property and am writing in order to clarify the status (ownership, rights, etc) of the pathways at the front and rear of the property, and which are unfortunately not marked on the Title Deeds and Leasehold plans.
We need clarity from you, the freeholder, as we have understandably always believed, and commonsense and logic would tell you, that the pathway areas and gates, which have been in place for years, would be shared between the lower and first floor flats. This however is not the view point of our downstairs neighbour Mr Thomas (182).
Mr Thomas says the pathways are not shared and the land on the rear pathway is owned by him. He has then proceeded on this basis, to remove the boundary fencing on the rear pathway, which opens up his back garden and means we now walk through the path in his open garden, with our loss of privacy, in order to reach our rear garden. He has also requested us to remove our bins which are stored behind the rear gate (gate which he also says he owns), as he says this is his land which he wants to cordon off and use for his purposes.
We have spoken to Mr Thomas on the matter and it would appear his behaviour and actions are a result of being denied planning permission for an extension to his property. He wants to increase his so called amenity space and says he has the right to do so.
By the way, we paid for the whole pathway to be re-paved in 2006.
What has occurred does not seem right and you can understand why we need clarity on our leasehold agreement and for Mr Thomas to also be clear as to the true position regarding the lease.
I am more than happy to be available should you wish to visit the property.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Please send me a message on Justanswer so we can continue.
Is it possible for you to knock up a sketch of the exact layout so that I can see exactly where the fence and path is and gate? Thanks
I have sent email for your attention to XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX with attachment of sketch showing the pathways. This should help get understanding of how it all looks.
Thanks for excellent sketch.
I can see exactly now what you own and what he he is doing.
I dont actually know what he owns.
Is the path down the side of the house in his title along with his garden areas?
This is the problem, the title deeds plan layout does not show the pathways but as I said they have always been regarded by us as shared. There are about 30 maisonettes of the same type and none of their plans show pathways.
Our neighbour submitted a planning application for an extension to their ground floor flat and it has been rejected twice by planning. His actions and behavious are a reaction to these refusals. He believe removing the fencing and then erecting another fence to claim the area at the bins will incease his 'amenity space' and help his next application for extension. He is not the most popular or neighbourly of people and this is not have main residence (lives in Spain).
The plans I sent you has the 182 and 182A gardens marked at the back and the plans actually have the fornt split into 2 halves but in reality just one garden. He says the land is his with pathway at back and he is just giving us right of access to our garden. When you look on plans you can see the marking for his land does go right round the property but we still believe he does not have the right to do as he does - it cannot be right. Unfortunately the pathways not shown on plans otherwise would be easier to resolve.
Hope bit clearer in order to help us identify our rights as neighbour is talking solely as if he owns the area and can do as he pleases so long as he gives us some access.
Thanks. Ignore planning and ignore paths for now. Who owns the land at the side of the house where your bins are?
Is it on his deeds edged in any colour?
You sent me your deeds and plan but not his.
It isnt in your deeds, so is it in the neighbour's?
You can get neighbours deeds and plan from HMLR online for £6
I sent you a copy of our deeds with our area edge in colour, the remaining will be neighbours. I do actually have a copy of their title deeds as requested then previously on internet.
I have sent email to XXXXX@XXXXXX.XXX again to forward their title deeds to you.
Appreciate your help.
When I get them, Iwill get back to you. It would appear, therefore (unless you disagree) that theneighbour owns the area at the side of the house from what you say . Iwill have a better idea when I get the deeds
The neighbour would appear to own all the land around the maisonette. With us owning the land on the outer. You will see this on the plans and as i say this is applicable to all maisonettes in Coombe Lane. The reality is this is not how it has been viewed or treated. The pathways at the front and rear have always been regarded as shared and are how you enter your front doors and rear garden. This has been in place for years. We have even been responsible for looking after the garden at front on the right side along path and not for cutting the grass on the main part of garden at front, this being done by downstairs. This activity and responsibility contradicts the plans but it is how it is., and this has not been a problem until now.
The pathways not marked on the plans does created an issue of clarity but you will see from the land registry I have emailed you that there is some markings on the land behind the gate (which is the fenced up area round the path - which he has since removed).
So you own the 1/2 garden at very front and extreme rear and 1st floor of maisonette?
He owns "inner" garden halves and ground floor and land at the side?
How long have bins been in place where they are?
How would he feel if you put fences between each garden section?
So you own the 1/2 garden at very front and extreme rear and 1st floor of maisonette? YES
He owns "inner" garden halves and ground floor and land at the side? YES
How long have bins been in place where they are? THERE WERE BINS WHEN WE MOVED IN 2005 - SO WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE FOR SOMETIME.
How would he feel if you put fences between each garden section? I DID SAY THIS TO NEIGHBOUR IN ORDER TO EMPHASIZE POINT OF SHARED PATHWAYS AT FRONT AND THEREFORE BACK. HE SAYS LAND AT BACK GATE HIS AND HE IS CHANGING USE (I.E. REMOVE BINS SO HE CAN CORDON OFF SIDE AND USE FOR HIS PURPOSE. THERE IS A BOUNDARY FENCE WHICH SEPERATES BACK GARDENS WHICH HE ALSO SAYS HE PUT UP AND IS ACTUALLY HIS FENCE.
You could gate the front lawn off using his logic!
If the bins have been there for more than 20 years without consent or objection you have acquired a prescriptive easement to keep them there.
Whether he can put fence up and gates would come down to whether it interferes with your right of access.
Check yr house insurance to see if you have legal expenses cover to deal with this.
It isnt going to be a cheap or quick argument if he sticks to his guns
Can I help further?
Now given all the facts, can you you reply to our original legal question to confirm how we stand on the matter.
He cannot make a substantialreduction in the width of the path and providing you can still get up and downit without hindrance there is nothing you can do.
It would come down to how muchhe is reducing the width.
I think that on these facts,you are entitled to keep the bins there
Under the Access toNeighbouring Land Act he has to give you access to drains.
Can I answer any otherspecific questions?
I would like to be able to go to our neighbour and say we have seeked legal advice and we have been told the position regarding the pathways (are they shared), who owns what (i.e the gates, the pathways, the fencing) and what our rights are (can we say you cannot erect a cordonned off fence for bins) and what our neighbour can or cannot do, is as follows............
As I say this is what we need to know, in order to prevent our neighbour taking control and ownership of an area which is always been regarded as shared.
He can put a fence up around the bins but must allow you to keep bins there and give you unhindered access.
He can fence the path but must not make any substantial interference with your right of access.
That is the legal wording. Not precise I know but that is the word the courts use. Many court cases over what is substantial interference or not
Thanks very much that now gives us a bit more understanding.
One last wee question - can you say who actually owns the gate and the pathways which accesses the backgarden and can we re-erect the fence along the pathway which he has removed?
Who put the gates and fences in? How long ago?
He owns the path which goes over his part of the garden and you own the bit which goes over yours
The gates have been there for years. Neighbour says they erected fence about 1998.
The gates and fence basicaly belong to whover put them ther. After 20 years he acquires the right to leave them (Prescriptive Easement) provided no one objects in that 20 years and he did it with no consent.
If you re-erect the fence, then he is faced with an argument with you. It works both ways for him!
I am sorry this has dragged on a little but if I can go back to basics to know what we can do.
Basically, the neighbour has removed the fence which goes along the pathway to our garden at the back and he plans at a future unknown date to re-erect the fence but continure it thru to block of the bin area which is currently used by us. The removal of this fence means we walk openly through the pathway as if walking through his garden to get to ours, giving us no privacy along that pathway. He has done all of this as he says its is his land and he just has to give us access to garden.
We are not happy and want to know our rights.
Can you possible give us an answer to the above so that we can then go to our neighbour and state our rights.
This will final close our legal query.
You cannot put the fence back up on his garden as you only have access over it.
You can put bins in the bin location if they have been there for 20 years or more.
You can fence the path off on yr front garden area.