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Jo C.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 69265
Experience:  Over 5 years in practice
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i have a CCJ against an indivdual, the person concerned has

Customer Question

i have a CCJ against an indivdual, the person concerned has not complied with the order. i know that he has properties but do not know the addresses so i cannot make an interim charging order prior to enforcing a sale of any properties he has. i made an application to LAND REGISTRY for an IOPN search and they sent back that they cannot make a seach without a court order, their reply had a paragraph with the minimum of information that they can give, with a small paragraph for the court saying they need a specific order of the name to be searched and any derivitives of that name. the district judge involved has originally said that as the judgement creditor i can take any action i wish to get my money but has denied me a court order for an IOPN search saying that until i give him an address he cannot give an order and has said the court does not know what an IOPN search is. he has further stated that i have no interest in the debtors properties until i have the addresses and give them to him. IF I HAD THE ADDRESSES IWOULD NOT NEED TO MAKE AN IOPN SEARCH. I woud make a charging order on the the properties and try to enforce sale through the HIGH COURT. i think the judge is being pedantic and has put me in a CATCH 22 situation. i did consider making an application to the high court for an order for an IOPN search but they, the judicial section, keep referring me back to the centntral london county court where it seems the same district judge will be back in the frame . i have made successful third party debt order and recovered a small sum from the debtors bank but this has been swallowed up by expenses. surely i have an interest in any possesions of the debtor such as cars etc since i have a CCJ which he has not complied with.
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.

Thank you for your question. My name is XXXXX XXXXX I will try to help with this.

How can I help with this please?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

well i need to know the way forward from the info i have given. not least i think the judge is wrong in refusing me an order to the land registry

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
The land registry have produced a guide on IOPN searches which is here .

And here is the press release from its launch from 2011.

What is appears that you did not do is produce to the judge (who may not know anything about land registry procedure if he has been dealing with this as a debt issue) a copy of the land registry Practice Guide.

You are now therefore faced with making an application to appeal the judgement. However because it appears that your initial application did not have the necessary evidence attached the judge may require a new application correctly laid out.

Please remember that depending on the amount of money that you are owed you may not necessarily get an order for sale even if you can find out what properties the debtor owes. You are going to need a charging order first in any event.

Unless the debt is really substantial and there is a lot of equity in the property, it is unlikely that you would get an order for sale because the judge will very often say that granting an order for sale in respect of a charging order is a disproportionate measure. Depending on how much the first mortgage is even though you may have all the expense of getting the order for sale you may not necessarily get any money out of it. Therefore before going down the route to getting the charging order you really need to know what equity is in the property.

Have you considered employing a private investigator which is likely to be much quicker than court application?

Can I clarify anything for you?

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

the judge knows it it a debt and he knows how much £40 thousand,5 hundred he knows it is a ccj which is unpaid, his initial response was, the court does not know what an IOPN search is and he wants an explanation from the land reg as to what they want. the land reg when they refused my application put a small para. saying they want an order from the judge specifically stating the name of the person to be searched and any variations of that name. the judge seems to have ignored that para and in his second letter stated that i have no interest in any properties of the debtor until i can give him addresses from the land registry. i know the proceedure of interim charging but cannot get that far because the will not give an order until i give him addresses as already stated if i knew the adresses i would not need the judge i would go straight for an interim charge then go to the high court to enforce a sale

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
Did you show the judge the practice guide?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

no i did not show the judge the practice guide because i would expect a judge who is making these comments to know the subject he is commenting on. and as for the comment "i have no interest in the debtors properties until i get addresses" that is like saying i have no interest in what money he holds in the bank or what vehicles he owns. incidentally as i think i mentioned i did make a successful third party debt order on the debtors bank

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
You do not have an interest in the property until you can actually prove that he has property and you have an order against it.

At this stage, you have a potential interest in the property.

If the judge is dealing with debt matters which he obviously is, it is highly likely that he will not know or land registry procedures in depth and all you would need to show him in all probability would be a copy of the practice guide and a copy of any correspondence from the land registry.

Of course, you could always appeal the judge's decision on the basis that he made an error of law or an error of fact although it would be quicker and more risk-free to simply make a new application.
Jo C., Barrister
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 69265
Experience: Over 5 years in practice
Jo C. and other Law Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

how would i word a second application. do i say i have a potential interest in any properties of the debtor , it will all come down to the same problem, no order from the land registry means no order from the judge to the land registry it"s as i say a catch 22.i am in the process of contacting the land reg for a copy of the guide you mentioned so presumably the judge will wade through this and make some judgement but i still dont know how to formulate a second application using this guide

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
The problem quite simply appears to have been that the judge is not familiar with the IOPN process which does not surprise me because every judge barrister and solicitor is not familiar with every process in every aspect of law.

If you can get an explanatory letter from the land registry so much the better.

Spell it out in simple terms:

In the application, explain that (obviously) you have judgement in your favour and you wish to apply to register a charging order against the defendants property.

In order to do that you need details of the property(ies) owned by the defendant.

The land registry are able to provide this information by way of a process called a IOPN (Index of Proprietors Names) search but they will only reveal the information as a result of a court order.

Information is contained in the land registry Practice Guide at page xx and also in the Land registry letter dated XXX

Therefore you want the court to order the land registry to prise you details of the judgement debtors (defendants) properties so that you can make the appropriate application to the court for a charging order.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

thank you Jo C I WILL TRY TO FOLLOW YOU EXPLANATION AND SEE WHAT TRANSPIRES. meanwhile i will await the guide from Land Reg

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.

No problem and all the best.

Remember that I am always available to help with your questions. Even if I am in Court I will usually pick up a question within 12 hours. For future information, please start your question with ‘For Jo C’. You can also bookmark my profile

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