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Ash
Ash, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 10916
Experience:  Solicitor with 5+ years experience
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I am the year old founder member of a Large Sports Club

Resolved Question:

I am the 69 year old founder member of a Large Sports Club Ltd that has two sections one being cricket the other being one of the Uk's largest Gun Clubs.
The club shooting section has a horrendous record of abusing memebrs basic Human Rights.
Cttee meeting take place where a memebr is discussed on whatver matter a decion is made to then remove the member and that is then that.
The memebr is never invited in to put their initial defence to whatever the allegations.
Cttee has been found guilty on this in the Crown Court before now and upheld at London Roayal Appeal.
The Ctte has faced 4 recent magistrets Courts for refusing to give members minutes of Cttee meeting and in effect ignore subject data accees requests served on them.
Due to a change in the Law on the recent 14th July realtive to section 21(2C) of the Firerms Acts I cannot be in possesion of a Firearm for a period of two years due to a conviction back in Octorber 201o of a 12 months suspended sentence for 2 years which expired last Octobe.
This was a licensing matter and not criminal and the judge ruled i am a man of previous good character and a man of positive good character.
The act says I cannot be in "possesion of a Firearm" thats all.
The Ctte state I cannot be a mebebr of a shooting lcub which has sociall facilies I enjoy with friends for the past 30 years.
They cannot as yet prooduce the evidene in Law which states a "temporary prohihibited" person being in possession of a fiream must be banned from a club.
I have complied with Police requests and have no Firerms whatsoever although a huge collection in store with Regsitered dealers.
The Home Offcie is looking at this and as yet not responded.
Cttee have met over the past 3 months to deabte in secret on the new law change and they can get me out .
Its a case of new and younger Cttee members wish to remove the old founders of it all.
So I contend that a meeting in secret I did not even know was taking place then to be given a letter I am removod as a Life Hon although its staes this is not disclinary is illegal.
As said the Club has been done before in Crown Courts on exactly this and they ignore Courts rulings.
Appreciate a comment please.
Yours ~~~~~ Graham
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Law
Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
Alex Watts : Hello my name is ***** ***** I will help you with this. Please note that I am a working Solicitor and may be on and offline as I have to attend Court and meet with clients, even at weekends. As such you may not get an instant response when you reply, but rest assured I will be giving your question my immediate attention upon return You do not need to wait here as you will get an email when I reply.
Alex Watts : Are you sure they have been to the crown court? What were they convicted of please?
Customer:

Alex .

Customer:

yes the club has been to crown Cour on ufair dismissal as at the time iwas its Chariman 12 years ago and chrged with Malfeasnec in Office.

Customer:

As said the ctte met and discuused a person and his wrong doings then refused is membership he was then wriitten to to tell him he was no longer a memebr.

Customer:

The Court ruled improper as he was not invited in to put and defense.

Customer:

Club has no doen just the same to me depite its founder of 30 years dedicated servcise.

Customer:

So I conclude it s an unfair dismissal as never been called in to offer any defense.

Customer:

As to wheteher a person with just now a prohibiotn order due to the 14th July law just passed CANNOT be a meber of a club is not verified .

Customer:

Even the Home cannot comment at present.

Customer:

I am myself a bit of an authroty in the shooting world as a cannon maker for what that is worth.

Customer:

A Roamanin Nationla in the club was removed by a simple letter from the now Chairman to basically go away ~~even Police sted most unfair dismissal.

Customer:

The person simply did so as he knows no Human Rights.

Customer:

They now try it on me ~~but I am a bit versed in ones rights.

Customer:

Feel this is most unfair and improer dismissl of a 30 year Life Honorary meber and founder of this club.

Customer:

Simply as the younger now elected Cttee want the old guys all out.

Alex Watts : I think you must be confused. Crown court is only criminal offences and unfair dismissal is not a criminal matter. Could you check and make sure you are right with the court please?
Customer:

will check over this weekend .

Customer:

However this case was 12 to 14 years ago and I as Chairman ended up in the London Appela Court before a Justice beldan and Justice Sumner.

Customer:

They upheld imroper dismissal and the guy was awarded small costs and damages.

Customer:

The relecvance of ths whic tokk 4 years was simply as said metings had took place towhich he was not inited in to preapre any defence .

Customer:

he did attned appela at the club but that was ruled improper as the same persons on the appela Cttee were those that dismiised him in the first place.

Customer:

So to be dismiseed by just receiving a leltter to say so after 30 years service and the letter says its not a disciplinary matter then I feel its quite improper.

Customer:

Non of the other 400 memebrs of this club have even been looked at before they dismissed me and given past meetings where no one is allowed to speak to outisiders but one or two do to me then I feel its clear discrimination against myslef.

Customer:

Some of them may be prohibited from being in possession of Firearms since the 14 July but the Cttee not interestetd in them

Customer:

As the Lady Charman has been heard to say she will get out anyone she feels like.

Customer:

At one meeting she asked to stand out at the meeting and be replaced by another Cttee memebrs as temporoary Chairmna so she could propose a motion this was agreed as per the consttitution where a Charimn can step out and tkae part.

Customer:

Her motion to remove a member failed ~~she then instructed the minutes secretary to minute nothing so no one would ever know about it and that was done.

Alex Watts : Can you check and let me know as you must be mistaken
Customer:

Alex ~~yes I am mistaken been in that many Crowns over the years the history is hard to recall.

Customer:

The case was at Worceter County Court and some 4 years later at the London Appeal Court listed as CDL Collins.v. Worcester norton shooting Club &Worcester Norton Sports Club Ltd - Appeal

Customer:

The shooting Cttee of which I was its Chairman had met sverel times to discuss Collins behaviour and breaking of the shooting clubs safety rules as Chairman under the constituion I had to be impartial to hearings and althougn no doubt the reposnible person could not affect or bar any Cttee decisons made

Customer:

Collins annual renewal to the club was then refused and all of this without him even knowing or invited to attend to defend himself.

Customer:

So he summonsed em and the President on Malfeasanc and the Club Co Ltd on a separet issue when he tried to rejoin as a socil memebr only and that was not evn viewed.

Customer:

He handed over the bar a application card with the £4 fee which was immediatley given back to him and he was told to just go away

Customer:

The Court ruled this was a Contract of Application and should have been fairly viewed by whatever accpetance body the club had for accepting in persons ~~so guilty on that.

Customer:

The Cttee now in effect does the same tthing to me by jsut getting a single leeetr to say my memebrship is canceeled. all done in secret without me evn knwoing of it.

Customer:

I contend this is most wrong under ones Basic Rights of Natural law.

Customer:

If you were a memebr of this club and Cttee jsut decided they did not like you then you would be removed by a single letter as said.

Customer:

Cttee staes its not disciplinary in my case as "they say" the Law says a prohibited person by the 14th July under the Anti Social behaviour refroms and changes to the Firearms Acts states a prohibited person CANNOT be a member of a Home offcie Approved shooting club.

Customer:

No one as yet can find this to be ture.

Customer:

I own 2 other clubs The national Cannon Assoocition of Gt Britian (Home Offcie Approevd) and the Globsla cannon Owners Club. (GCOC)

Customer:

As these clubs although still being formed would use the Worc Norton Ranges for seminars and events without doubt some on Cttee are not having it at all ~~so another reson to remove myself "Maybe"

Customer:

So what was done to me a week ago "in secret" no different o what they done back in 1999 of D Colins.

Customer:

Cttee now totally closes ranks so no discussion is open to any of them.

Alex Watts : The county court won't deal with dismissal, that would be an employment tribunal. The tribunal decision could be appealed to the employment appeal tribunal which may be held in a county court building. But it won't be a county court matter.
Alex Watts : Can you confirm please?
Customer:

Alot of law is different to Private Clubs which are voluntary run I belive.

Customer:

What I am asking is to dismiss the founder member and Life Hon with 30 years servcie and excellant records is unfair ??

Customer:

As mentioned the last one in 1999 Collins charged me basically with Malfeasance in Offcie this by the Cttee discussing hin in his basence and no righst to any defence were allowed to him.

Customer:

Does a tribunal cover Private Clubs wher one is not empolyed anyhow ?? we are all voluntary and Cttee elected annualy at AGM's depsite they more or less re elect thems selves as 400 memebrs of this club do not wish to be involved in the political problems

Alex Watts : Does the club constitution allow them to terminate a membership please?
Customer:

The club Constitution does allows this but based a mebrs wrong doing I have done no wrong.

Customer:

As my letter says its due to changes in the law ~~but as yet no one can find this out..

Customer:

So not disciinary The Club is unders CASC rules as well. so the Clubs Constitution or its Discilinary is not used.

Customer:

As the Secretaries dismmisall letter says we have "recieved additionla information" but cannot outline what this is or from what Acts of Law.

Customer:

Section 18:27 of last months latest Home Office Guidance to Police states the police must notify a club if a memebrs FAC is refused or revoked (they just Have) in addition clubs should be told in general terms of the reason for the revocation or refusal in orderthaty they can mahe an informde decison wheteh to allow the member to continues shooting as a member of the Club.

Customer:

I am not shhoitn and have not dones o for now 3 years but enjoy the socil facilty being with my freinds.

Customer:

I cannot be in possesion of my own guns till OCT 2016 and have not drawn out any club gusn for years.

Customer:

The club admist and knows this.

Customer:

And under sec 21(2C) of recent cannot have any gun in my hands till an FAC is reissued by Police.

Customer:

They interpret the above law para and say one cannot be a memebr of a club. that is not correct as Isee it.

Customer:

The Nationl Rifle Association (NRA) has svereral memerbs caught in this new Law but have removed non.

Customer:

The Cttee have deabeted in secret for the past 2 months how they can get me out .

Customer:

All is Highly personal Prejudicail ad dicrimantory as myself and exisitng Cttee memers do not like each other.

Customer:

I am awaiting Home Offcie interpreataion on this matter but that can take ages..

Customer:

Conatct you agin Mon Night or Tuesday thanks.

Alex Watts : So you want to know if they can get rid of members and if you can legally challenge it?
Customer:

The club can get rid of memebrs same as any other or an employer.

Customer:

Iask js a secret meeting held where you do not even get invited in then its illegal.

Customer:

As said the club has been found guilty of unlawfull dismissl and upheld by the Court of Appeal in 1999.

Customer:

I also ask does the Sec 21(2C)of the Firermsa Act in force two weeks ago on the 14th July BAN a temporary prohibted person from membership.....

Alex Watts :

Thank you. Its bad news I am afraid.

Alex Watts :

You can dismiss someone who is an employee

Alex Watts :

There is a lot of debate whether a volunteer can be an employee - generally not.

Alex Watts :

Therefore as a member can you remove members

Alex Watts :

The answer is yes

Alex Watts :

All you can do at this stage is if they did not follow their own procedure or rules is sue for breach of contract

Alex Watts :

But you would need to show a loss

Alex Watts :

It is far harder to sue a private club as they are not Companies, they are private members clubs

Alex Watts :

So you can't make the Court order that they accept you back, you are likely to only get damages

Alex Watts :

But if you are a volunteer then you are not considered an employee so all you can do is sue in Court

Alex Watts :

I am sorry if this is not the answer you want and certainly not the one I want to give you but I have a duty to be honest

Alex Watts :

Can I clarify anything for you about this today please?

Customer:

Based on the past Court hearings the Court found that to dismiis a person without even allwoing then to put forward their defence to matters was against one basic rights.

Customer:

With the HRA Acts now in force for everyone in the UK regardless as employed or not feel the position to disccus a person in secret then dismiiss them and not allow then any initial defebce is mayeb much worse.

Alex Watts :

HRA does NOT apply to non public bodies. Therefore if this is a private club the Human Rights Act does NOT apply

Alex Watts :

It only applies to government departments, public bodies

Customer:

Second question was does Section 21 (2C) of the 1986 Firerms Acts only out last week 14 th July BAN a person from being a memebr of a Home Offcie Approved Club.

Alex Watts :

Its only unfair dismissal if you were employed, that is received payment

Alex Watts :

If you were simply a member it would be breach of contract

Customer:

That is the one not being answered at present.

Alex Watts :

Let me check the legislation

Alex Watts :

Section 21 (2C) is not yet in force

Customer:

Thought the HRA applies to everyon but actions against Private Clubs may be Limited by the Governemnt depts from taking them.

Alex Watts :

No

Alex Watts :

HRA only applies to public bodies, no one else

Customer:

Section 21 (2C) came into force last 14 July ~~ Police letters to me confirm this so had to dispose of some weaopns .which before that date were simply air guns anyone can have.

Alex Watts :

I have just looked at the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Disorder Act 2014

Alex Watts :

Section 110 inserts 21 2C into the old legilsation

Alex Watts :

The Section states:

Alex Watts :

(1)In section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 (possession of firearms by persons previously convicted of crime), before subsection (3) there is inserted—


“(2C)Where—


(a)a person has been sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three months or more, and


(b)the sentence is suspended under section 189 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003,


the person shall not have a firearm or ammunition in his possession at any time during the period of five years beginning with the second day after the date on which the sentence is passed.”

Alex Watts :

So NO it does not ban a person who does not belong to a club.

Alex Watts :

Can I clarify anything else for you?

Customer:

I am well aware of the Act as mentioned But the question not being answered is does anything say a Prohibited Person is banned from being a member of a Home Offcie Approved Club that is the question no one caan answer at present.

Alex Watts :

You asked if Section 21 2C applied to that and I said no

Customer:

This maybe not in the present Acts itsefl but amongst the old 1968 requirments for a person to be suitable to be in a gun club.

Customer:

As my club in theris secret meetings have said its not disciplinary at all but have to be banned by Law.

Alex Watts :

Yes that is a requiremet of the old Act

Alex Watts :

This is a contractual issue between you and the club as I have said before

Alex Watts :

You can sue for breach of contract if they have breached the terms

Customer:

No one as yet can find this law.in possesion is a totaly diferent matter to being alowed to be in a club.

Customer:

As if say a Court banned a person from drinking alcohol it odes not prevent them going in a Pub or being a member of a club that serves it.

Alex Watts :

I dont understand your question - can you please ask it in a concise and clear way and I will try to help.

Customer:

My question is simply this as being Prohibited from being in possession of a Firearm under the new Sec21(2C 1968 Firerms Act does this BAN a person from being a member of a Home Offcie Approved Club

Customer:

I am its founder and Life Horoay for 30 yearsnow told I cannot be a memeber as banned by law.

Alex Watts :

Being a member of a club, without a firearm?

Customer:

Banned from possesion of yes I agree that ~~ but banned from a club is the one not being answered.

Alex Watts :

So a member of a club but without a firearm?

Customer:

Yes a memebr of a club without a firearm.

Customer:

Manyo ld members have no firearms and enjoy the social side of the facilty...

Customer:

I am told I cannot now be a memerbs due to being prhibetd under Sec 21(2C).

Customer:

Banned by Law as they say even the Home Offcie as yet cannot answer this.

Customer:

The Nationla Rifle Association Bisley has several memebrs now caught on suspended sentences 5 years ban but say they cannot remove them as they have committed no crimes or broken any rules of the facility.

Customer:

Its their Human Right s to Freedom of Asscoaitons but cannot hold firearms.

Customer:

Appreciate Private members clubs cannot be prosecuted by Government on Human Rights violations but the mebers and all still covered by these rights as the Acts say they apply to every man woman and child.

Customer:

If we forget HRA as the Court in 1999 staed to dismissa person without inviting then to face the Cttee and give their defence is inproer and unlawful.

Customer:

So conclude the same has just happened to me.

Alex Watts :

Ok. Section 21 2C states

Alex Watts :

(1)In section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 (possession of firearms by persons previously convicted of crime), before subsection (3) there is inserted—


“(2C)Where—


(a)a person has been sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three months or more, and


(b)the sentence is suspended under section 189 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003,


the person shall not have a firearm or ammunition in his possession at any time during the period of five years beginning with the second day after the date on which the sentence is passed.”

Alex Watts :

So it does NOT say anything about being banned

Alex Watts :

Does that clarify?

Customer:

Alex ~~you have not answered my questions so repat.

Customer:

Does section 21 (2C) BAN a person from being a memebr of a Home offcie Approved Clu.

Customer:

Possessio of a Fireamr under Scetion 21(2C) is well understood as well versed on Firearms law myslef and been through several Court actions.

Customer:

Also second question is does a secret meeting held in ones total absence then improer as the victim is not allowed to make any defence to whatever is the alleged [rblen.

Customer:

As said Club clealry found guilty on this back in 1999.

Customer:

I need an e mail if possible confriming the annswers to the above.

Alex Watts :

The answer is NO

Alex Watts :

Does that clarify?

Customer:

We agree then that Sec 21(2C) does not BAN a perosn from being a memebr of a Gun Club as per your answer NO it odes not.

Alex Watts :

We agree it does NOT ban someone

Customer:

Do we then agree then a Cttee meeting held without the accused or victim being present to put his case is unlawfuull .

Alex Watts :

That depends, if that person is an employee - yes

Alex Watts :

If that person is a member, it is not unlawful

Customer:

That still supporting the 1999 rulings on unfair dismissal of e meber never allowed to put in his devense to alleagtions made.

Alex Watts :

It may be a breach of the constitution

Customer:

Definitley a breech of the Constituion and also ones basic rights in natural law I would say.

Alex Watts :

You can't sue for natural law, only breach of constitution if a memebr

Alex Watts :

does that clarify?

Customer:

Any chancece you could send me a simple email to say Sec 21(2C) does NOT ban a person from membership

Alex Watts :

Once you rate then the format changes.

Alex Watts :

You can then copy and paste the chat or come back to it at any time

Customer:

If I tell anyone of a reply like this all they say every time is we would like to see it it writing.

Alex Watts :

Once you rate email customer services, they may be able to send you it in email

Alex Watts :

As an expert I do not have that function

Customer:

Dealing with guys here who are aged 75+ nothing wrong in that but confusions exists with some of them.

Alex Watts :

Yes I understand, but I dont have the access to email you direct.

Customer:

Senile decay maybe.

Alex Watts :

Which is why when you rate you need to email customer services

Alex Watts :

Can I answer anything else for you today?

Ash and 2 other Law Specialists are ready to help you