my name is ***** ***** I will help you with this.
Yes if you attend the final hearing and the issue of interest is found in your favour you are entitled to claim:
1) £90 witness expenses
2) 45p a mile or train fare
3) Reasonable cost of hotel
Can I clarify anything about this today please?
Yes please, can you help with the question about the amendment to the sealed order?
I have to give the judge the relevant law which says she can change the sealed order (the change is on the years old sum owed)
If there has been an error then you need to apply to set aside or appeal the decision.
If there has been an error drawing up the order then you need to get a copy of the transcript of the hearing to see what was discussed and what the Judge intended.
But if its a clerical error it can simply be amended under Part 20 of the Civil Procedure Rules.
If the decision was wrong, then you have to appeal
Does that clarify?
I am LIP and the issue of interest was raised by the judge at the final hearing. But what she said was unclear, because it was dismissive and rushed 'you are probably entitled to claim interest on the sum but it's probably not a significant amount'...
Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 sets out that you are entitled to 8%
But interest is a discretionary matter.
yes, this was written on the original claim form
If you are entitled to more interest under contract, again this is discretion
Interest is a matter of discretion. If you disagree with the decision after a hearing then it should be an appael
but what the judge said was just strange and didn't say one thing or the other, and then when she asked me my costs were she was rushing me
Ok - then you still need the transcript.
If the Judge ordered something different to that which was intended you need a transcript and apply to vary
i don't think i can do/afford an appeal, which is more than bad because it's a significant sum
the order is just on the paper which came through. I didn't know what it would say about interest because what the judge said in the hearing was so unclear and rushing me
it didn't have interest, so i called and the office were asking me 'well what did the judge say in the hearing' and i said I didn't have exact words, but roughly what she said. Then one of them said that I should write to ask amendment
Might I suggest you get a transcript of the hearing then. Then you can see where you are.
But you cant ask if you didnt put it in the claim form.
It was in the claim form, the original one, but the judge didn't seem to look at it or have it of the hearings
I asked % from the date the money was owed. I thought the court would calculate this and didn't know if it was done automatically. THe judge was very rushed and kept shouting they had to get on. So when she said 'you are probably entitled to interest but it's insignificant really..' (trailed off) I didn't say anything
Ok. Then you need to get a transcript and see what was intended.
Its not automatic.
You have to ask . Even then then you are not automatically entitled to it. It is discretion
Yes, I will get a transcript. From what I say though, how would I proceed when the transcript would read like that?
If the order is not what the Judge intended you apply to vary
If you simply disagree with the decision you can ONLY appeal
could/should I ask the judge what she intended? The issue of interest had no input from me at all at the final hearing, it was just her saying 'probably you are entitled to interest but it's not significant'...
No, you can't ask. You need the transcript.
If the Judge said you are probably entitled to it, but not significant then it must be an appeal
the transcript isn't goinmg to tell anything different to those words
If the Judge said I am giving you x interest and it wasnt recorded on the order then its application to vary
From the sound of it, its an appeal
you need the transcript anyway
so can I clarify, you think that her saying 'it's not significant
sorry, typing badly
meant she didn't give me interest
Not signifcant is an appeal
So if you disagree with that, its an appeal
because of the way she said it, I thought she was saying 'don't tell me, I'll decide, I'm thinking and I'll decide later'
lots of travel, and then shouted at in a rush
No. The Judge will always decide there and then
So you have to appeal
In any event you would only usually get around 2-3% given the base rate of 0.5% so you need to decide whether its worth an appeal
Can I clarify anything ?
woldn't I be appealing 8% (which is about 3,000)
No, because its a matter of discretion. You wouldnt get 8%
You would get 2 or 3%
You dont get interest as of right
the appeal is 8% I thought? If not, then it's not worth it. The judge just didn't seem to be up to date with any of the claim
i have a date to go before the judge to ask if the order can be amended, so is that an appeal?
8% is a matter of discretion. You are not automatically entitled to it
Can't you see our chat about that above?
if discretionary then why wouldn't I ask % as that is what I'm appealing for?
I just didn't understand why it becomes 2-3%
Because interest and the rate is a matter of discretion of the Court.
Its not an automatic right %
You dont get it automatically.
yes, I wondered why the 2-3%
that was all
First the Court decides as a matter of discretion whether to award interest
Then the Court considers as a matter of discretion what rate to allow you
Because in my experience Courts generally only award at the moment between 2 and 3% given the Bank of England base rate is 0,5%
so I thought it could be 8%, because if it's only 2-3 at an appeal then it's not worth it
I have a court date, as in original question, and they say I have to state which law allows the judge to amend the order
Yes I would agree
Yes you can ask the Court to withdraw that application so you don't need to attend.
that was why the asking re the *%
sorry, I don't want to do that, because it's discretionary so could be 8%
Have I cleared that up now?
the original question was about the law which states that the judge is allowed to amend the order (I have to provide this, so I think this must be an appeal)
Yes it must be an appeal
What else would you like to know?
just because the basis of the question is re what law states that the judge is permitted to amend the sealed order (I have to state this in person to the judge)
The Judge can amend the sealed or if the Judge made a mistake.
That is what the Judge meant was not reflected in the order
Then the law there is it can be amended under part 20 of the Civil Procedure Rules
But you dont want to do that. You are disagreeing with the decision. It is therefore an appeal
Partly. Can you clarify that there are no other grounds ? The wording in the directions re this appeal are as in the original question: that I have to assist the judge and tell her what law applies. So I thought there was a law to cite. Is there any citation re a Judge making a mistake?
It's just that I need to be clear before I attend the appeal, what am I saying. 'Judge please amend the order as is permitted under rule...'
in the letter it says exactly: time estimate 1 hour (with 30 minutes allocated reading time prior to hearing)
and 'It is the responsibility of the party seeking an amendment to the order to assist the judge with providing the relevant law which states that she is permitted to amend the order after it has been sealed'.
There are no other grounds of a appeal. The law is the Civil Procedure Rules Part 20
That is what I am saying, its under the Court Rules part 20
Does that help?
Sorry, are you able comment re the quote from the court direction? 'It is the responsibility of the party seeking an amendment to the order to assist the judge with providing the relevant law which states that she is permitted to amend the order after it has been sealed'.
is it saying it must be a clerical error? Otherwise there is no law/rule?
yes the party seeking to make an amendment must assist the Judge
It can only be a clerical error otherwise it is an appeal
I am sorry
so if it is an 'amendment' does that mean not an appeal?
If the Judge meant one thing but when the order was drawn, it was not clear or was lost in translation, that is an amendment
But if you simply disagree with what the Judge said, ie in terms of interest that is an appeal
The Judge did not seem to order interest.
That is what you dispute.
This is why you need a transcript of the hearing as I have previously suggested
I don't live in england so having to travel to ask change to a clerical error. The office staff had said it would be possible to amend if I just wrote in, but now she's asking to attend
So you can see what was said and what the Judge meant to order
Without that transcription the Judge on reviewing the amendment can't say what the Judge meant
You need to attend because the other side may dispute what was said
i have spoken on the phone quite a bit, and originally wrote 2 months ago, but they said they missed the first letter somehow, so i wrote again
Which is why you need a transcript.
the reuest was to amend the order
i know what is in the transcript
You need a transcript
But no-one else does
The Judge you back before wont
the transcripts has the judge and myself doing as I said above
You have asked what you need to do. I have told you what you need to do
If its a clerical error then its amended under Part 20 of the rules
If it is not a clerical error then you need to appeal
The original question relates to a qute from the letter. I asked if you think this is an appeal, or a clerical error. I don't know which it is, and the transcript says as I quoted above from memory, I remember leaving the court being unsure whether interest was given, as were the notetakers
I think it is an appeal
All Court hearings are taped so you need a transscript.
The Judge did not allow you interest
You disagree with that.
Therefore it is an appeal
i just wonder if you can refer to the quote from the directions? If it's an appeal why is it asking me to state a law? (there is no law)
Because the people that draw up the orders are not lawyers, they are office staff
As I have mentioned it is contained within the Civil Procedure Rules re amendments to Court orders
But this is not an amendment
The Judge did not award interest, you dispute that
what goes in the orders I thought would all be directed from the judge, dictated or written, and thus asked because I thought this might be a common direction and make it clear whether it is an appeal or an amendment
Ok - I think you are getting a little confused
An amendment is where the Court staff got wrong what the Judge ordered
as mentioned above, the letter I wrote to the judge (as suggested by the office staff) was requesting an amendment, not an appeal
An appeal is where you consider the Judges decision to be wrong
then, after my letter was considered, I received this direction today
And your letter was considered by a Judge?
sorry, I do understand that
and the civil proc. re clerical errors
yes, it was
i wrote twice because the office said the letter was missed the first time
If the Judge missed it then you still need the transcript.
Do you understand that whatever you do, you will need the transcript?
If you do not understand that please tell me
the judge did get the letter, because I wrote again, and the directions state that 'upon receiving the letter from...[me] , and upon the judge being prepared to list the matter to decide whether interest can now be added to now that the order has been sealed' IT IS ORDERED THAT the matter be listed....hour...NOTE: It is the responsinility of the party seeking an amendment to the order to assist the judge..etc as above
I will get the transcript
I know what happened because I have notes and remember clearly
Ok. Once you get the transcript you will see what the Judge said (because when you go back to Court another Judge will need this).
it is just as I describe here
Ok. Well if the Judge just did not order interest you would have to appeal
If the Judge did order interest and the office staff did not include it then it would be an amendment
sorry, I realise this is long
is this hearing an appeal, or can it be then?
Its not an appeal.
and should I just ignore the note about relevant law and state that this is an appeal? I thought an appeal wold be with a different judge
No, because if its an appeal you need to file an Appellants Notice
do you know what it is then?
And then file a transcript as well
No, because I have not seen the Court orders or know what the Court has said.
I assume it is to consider your application to amend the order
it says it is to decide whether interest can be added
That application may succeed or it may be rejected.
Yes, but it is NOT an appeal
Please also remember you asked detail low urgency when you asked the question. We have been talking hours.
This is to consider whether your application to amend is successful.
But you need to get the transcript to provide the Judge about what happened that day
It wont necessarily be the same Judge that heard your original case
But it is not an appeal from what you have said.
well i quoted exactly from the letter, but I don't feel any further forward
it is the same qc
Ok, I will opt out then and let someone else help you.
it says that this is to consider whether interest can be now that the order has been sealed, (at the end it adds that the service request I made will also be considered)
Then it is not an appeal because it does NOT say it is
If it was an appeal the order would read:
The hearing of the APPEAL will take place on (date/time)
You would also need to file appeal documents which you have not been asked to do so
Therefore it is NOT an appeal
I will call the court again to see if there is any clarification - I don't know if I'm asking here possibility of amending a sealed order (regardless of what amendment), or asking possibility and wait and then state the interest and ask , or both at the same time as I begin speaking
Ok. Is there anything else you want to know from me?
Yes, is it possible expert to assist and see the above background?
also, re the asking , my question was about the directions hearing I am due to attend, as I said I been to the final hearing already (I was awarded expenses and previous hearings). I asked because the order is made, so I am unsure what happens in regards ***** ***** costs
how can i pay something time/ should i rate or will that close the question from others?
Yes if you rate it does credit me time. However others can still see the question