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Ash
Ash, Solicitor
Category: Law
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Experience:  Solicitor with 5+ years experience
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I need some help filling in an appeal form N161. It is a

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Hi I need some help filling in an appeal form N161. It is a second appeal due to the Appeal judge conducted the trial without reading the skeleton argument of mine (who was the respondent).
Submitted: 2 years ago.
Category: Law
Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
Hi.
Thank you for your question. My name is ***** ***** I will try to help with this.
-Could you explain your situation a little more?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I have a case where I was Litigant in person, for first hearing and appeal. The case was a minor dispute of £127 that a Freeholder refused to correct even after producing the Bank Letter of payment. I was waiting for the correction, they passed the matter to solicitors which ended up in CC.

1st hearing I won, as the judge thought the Claimant was intimidating me by not correcting or revising the invoice.

The claimant appealed saying notwithstanding they are entitled to cost referring to S186 that allows CC proceeding before forfeiture process. I argued, stating a LVT guidance that S186 is not to be used for small amounts and that outstanding for less than 3 years as one would expect it to be.

But during the appeal hearing, the judge turned up saying he was dropped into the case that morning hence did not have much time other than just reading the Skeleton Arguments, I submitted mine in time, hence I assumed he read mine, towards the end, when I re-emphasised the importance of Limitations on using S186, he said he never saw my skeleton argument, to save his face read it again in the hearing, but the stage it was too late to change, but Judge said he was appalled by the situation and said I could appeal.

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
Ok. Thanks.
That is not really my area then but I will pass this onto somebody else for you.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

ok, will they reply straight away?

Expert:  Jo C. replied 2 years ago.
I am chasing people!!!
You will get an email when they respond. No need to sit online if you have other things to do.
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I need to fill in the form today, pls try find someone asap, the questions I have will apply to any small claim court process, appeal and second appeal. NO need to be an expert in leasehold law, but it would certainly help getting accurate answers

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
Hello my name is ***** ***** I will help you with this
What is it you need help with?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Above is the explanation, I have few questions related to a case and to fill the N161 for second appeal

In N161 for for appeals, I don't understand some legal terms their actual meaning in my context

Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Hi Alex, I see you offered phone help, but I am now in Qatar and we work on Saturdays, hence email help will be better for me.

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
So you are appealing error in procedure and decision unreasonable. Which bit do you need help with?
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

second appeal will be based on stricter test,






second appeal against the same order, you can only do so if the Court of Appeal in London gives you permission. You must make your application for permission to that court permission for a second appeal will only be given exceptionally,

two basis, which one can I target?






  1. In a second appeal, an appeal may only be made to the Court of Appeal if that Court considers that the appeal would raise an important point of principle or practice or that there is some other compelling reason for the Court of Appeal to hear it.









Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
You can appeal both. The first ground is wrong procedure. The second ground is that the decision was unreasonable based on the fact the judge didn't read or get Skeleton until late.
Does that help?
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Section 8: of N161 form, what should I tick, rehearing or other options.

I want to change (2) also (3) what does (3) mean, there shall be no more cost, if I lose I don't need to pay theirs, if I win they will not pay mm cost?

I want to appeal to cancel the order (2), and if I win I need them to pay my cost, hence which option on N161, Section 8 should I tick.

Other question if you have the form N161, what document I should attach, county court category (at bottom) asks for a lot of documents to be attached, I dont have transcript yet, but can attach 1st hearing details.

Appeal decision is :

UPON HEARING Miss Norrington the Claimant's solicitors agent, and Mr Rubakantha
in person
IT IS ORDERED THAT:
1. Permission to appeal against the decision of Deputy District Judge Sharp made on
20 February 2015 is given, and the appeal is hereby allowed.
2. Pursuant to paragraph 33 of Part 11 of the Sixth Schedule to the lease dated 21
March 2007, the claimant is entitled to recover contractual costs, which are
hereby summarily assessed in the sum of £3, 588.89.
3. There shall be no further order to costs.
4. This being a decision made on appeal, pursuant to CPR rule 52.4, permission is
required from the Court of Appeal for any appeal to that court from this decision.

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
Section 8
2 - is to vary the order
3 - is to have a rehearing
Therefore you need to vary the order.
Does that help?
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I was under the impression, since my ground of appeal is a procedural error, I should ask for retrial.

So in my situation I have to vary the order, and tell the court how I want it to be varied. Could I ask for cost of mine to be paid by Claimant in second appeal since the judge ruled already (3) "there shall be no more costs", do I have to vary this order as well to claim my expenses if I win?

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
You can ask for a rehearing or to vary the order. If you win the appeal then you can ask for costs in any event.
Does that help?
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

From the options given in the form I could see I can choose either this or that

but what would I do in my situation, what will the retrial entail hence, can the costs awarded be increased? if I ask for only part of the order to vary, what will ask it to be? please explain more relating to my situation and case. All explained above, if need more explanation, let me know.

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
If there is a retrial and you lose on that then yes, you risk costs. If you want the whole matter reheard then you can ask for it to be remitted back.
If you simply want to vary the order because there is a part you dont agree with, you can ask for that,
Does that help?
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

Why did the judge say, in the order, (3) that there shall be no more cost ?

so in my situation, what would you suggest. Order point (2) is what I am disputing, but I need to be able to claim my expenses if I win.

what is involved in changing the order, I suspect changing the order will require a retrial? why a separate retrial option then?

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
That means no further or as to costs as in there are not any for that hearing you had,
The court will rehear the matter and decide whether it was wrong.
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

will retrial be in the same appeal court in B'ham and rehearing to change the order will be in higher court?

is it right to think that if there were many orders, say 10, it make sense to ask for change the order that I think was wrong, but in this case, niether retrial or change the order will be the same process, as I am primarily disputing order (2).

Can I request to change the order (1), that involved granting permission for appeal.

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
Birmingham is fine as they sit as court of appeal there too.
You don't need to apply for permission to change so you can appeal. You seek leave from the court of appeal, it overrides the refusal
Does that help?
Alex
Customer: replied 2 years ago.

I am not sure I have not made my questions clear or just not understanding common legal expressions back from you

sorry I dont understand some legal expressions, such as in your previous replies

"If you want the whole matter reheard then you can ask for it to be remitted back"

what to be remitted back?

"You seek leave from the court of appeal, it overrides the refusal" - I attached the order from appeal court in previous mails and was referring to order (1).

Expert:  Ash replied 2 years ago.
Ok. The court gave permission to refuse but that does not stop you appealing. It was not given but that means you can still appeal.
When you appeal the court can rehear the matter there and then saying why the curt got it wrong.
Does that help ?
Alex
Ash, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 10916
Experience: Solicitor with 5+ years experience
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