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Ben Jones
Ben Jones, UK Lawyer
Category: Law
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8 weeks ago my apprenticeship was terminated and despite

Customer Question

8 weeks ago my apprenticeship was terminated and despite several phone calls and emails to the company they have not sent me my P45 I have also requested a copy of my P60 as this was held electronically on my job phone. HMRC have advised they cannot do anything and I need my P45 for my new employer ad I am on emergency tax code. The company initially stated they wanted me to repay training costs of £2750 although my contract stat d who of I leave th do,pant it did not cover if my apprenticeship was terminated by them. The apprenticeship was for three years but was terminated after 14 months due to having 11 days sick. Is thef anyway hing I can do to get my P45 as the HR manager is just not supplying it even though she said she would they have withheld my £896 wages as well.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Law
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Hello, my name is***** am a qualified lawyer and it is my pleasure to assist you with your question today.

Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Have they paid you any final amount at all? Also, did your apprenticeship agreement have a notice period at all?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
No they haven't paid my final salary of £896 which was due in the 25/6/16 they state they are withholding this amount to offset against training costs. HMRC have stated they have not told them of my termination. The above amount included a weeks notice. The HR manager a week ago stated she would chase the pay bureau but still nothing. I am at my wits end what to do to get my tax code.
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

OK thank you, ***** ***** it with me. I am in court today so will prepare my advice during the day and get back to you at the earliest opportunity. There is no need to wait here as you will receive an email when I have responded. Thank you.

Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Many thanks for your patience. There is no specific time limit for issuing a P45 but it should be sent to HMRC as soon as possible after the last pay date, and be given to the employee as soon as possible thereafter. The specific law which provides the rules on issuing a P45 state that when an employee ceases employment, the employer must provide a P45 to that employee "on the day on which employment ceases or, if that is not practicable, without unreasonable delay".

The issue is that you cannot force the employer to issue the P45 and there are many instances where they simply refuse to do so. You cannot physically force them to provide this to you. Sadly there is no specific remedy in law if the employer fails to provide a P45. The employee would generally request a copy from HMRC. If the employer fails to file the P45 with HMRC, then the employer may be liable to penalties for failing to file P45. So the best argument you can take up to try and get that is to warn them that failure to issue you with a P45 would leave you with no other option but to report the matter to HMRC and they may then be liable for penalties as a result.

I hope this has answered your query. I would be grateful if you could please take a second to leave a positive rating (3, 4 or 5 stars) as that is an important part of our process and recognises the time I have spent assisting you. If you need me to clarify anything before you go - please get back to me on here and I will assist further as best as I can. Thank you

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Customer: replied 1 year ago.
BenThanks for your response. Can they enforce me to pay the training costs of £2750? Contract states if I leave after four years from commencement of my apprenticeship 21/4/15 I have to repay training costs. They terminated the contract on the 8/6/16 their decision not mine?
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Thanks do you have the specific clause about repayment please?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
If you leave the company within four years of your commencement date then you may be liable to repay all training expenses incurred within your traineeship (up to the value of £10,000) as followsUp to the end of two years 100 per cent
After three years 50 per cent
After four years 25 per centThey are asking for £2750They terminated my employment surely this is not my fault . Other apprentices who started at the same time as me who have also been terminated or left on their own free will have not been asked to repay training costs.
Thanks
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Thanks. The wording says ‘leave’ which suggests that this is done on your own accord. Also it is likely that a precedent would have been set from previous cases where no fees were pursued so it is unlikely that they can actually do this.

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The letter sent statesFurther to the decision to end your contract of employment with the business this is to confirm in line with your contractual obligations you need to repay the training costs valued at £2750. To this end we have attached a repayment agreement regarding this amount and until we hear further from you in this regard the final monies owed to you valued at £896.07 have temporarily been withheld. Can you print two copies of the agreement retain one and return one to myself by scan email detailing at point 4 the monthly amount you wish to repay back this amount.
If you have any queries please contact me.I replied to this with several queries I'd regarding this clause in the contract made several phone calls several emails to no avail. Quite clearly she has not informed HMRC of my termination and I have not as yet completed the repayment agreement as I disagreed with it stating it was the company who ended the contract not me.Should I just send another email to the company regarding the P45 and not mention the training costs?
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Does the contract state that they can deduct the training fees from your pay?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Under training it states as above with percentages etc and then saysDeductions will take the form of a wage deduction from any final monies owed to you.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
In her letter she changed the wording to 4 years from the commencement dateSorry only just noticed this
Please see below letter ironically it states 25/5/16 the hearing wasn't until 8/6/16 when my contract was terminated with one weeks notice in lieu
Our ref V​​​​ 27th June 2016
Mr. XXX
REPAYMENT AGREEMENT - TRAINING COSTS
& DAMAGE TO COMPANY VEHICLE
Dear *****
Further to the decision to end your contract of employment with the business - this is to confirm that in line with your contractual obligations, you need to repay the training costs valued at £2,500.00.
There is also an amount of £250.00 owed by you (in line with our Company Vehicle Policy) due to you being liable for the insurance excess for the damage that was sustained by you whilst responsible for our Company Vehicle.
To this end we have attached a copy of the Repayment Agreement regarding this amount and until we hear further from you in this regard, the final monies owed to you (to the value of £896.07) have temporarily been "withheld".
Can you please print out two copies of this agreement, sign both, retain one for your own records and return the other to myself by scan email, no later than five working days from today, indicating clearly at point 4. the monthly amounts you wish to pay back this amount.
If you have any queries regarding this, please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned.
Yours sincerely
XXX
Group Human Resources Manager
REPAYMENT PLAN AGREEMENT -
1. I, JOSH XXX understand that due to my leaving the Company (ie: 18-06-2016) the following clause from my Contractual becomes applicable:-
If you leave the Company within 4 years of your commencement date, then you may be liable to repay all training expenses incurred within your Traineeship (upto the value of £10,000), as follows:-
- Leave at any point upto the end of 2 years : ​100%
​- Leave after 3 years : ​ ​ ​ 50%
​- Leave after 4 years : ​​​​ 25
​​​​​​​​​​​​​
- Hotel Accommodation (Academy Training)
- Vehicle Hire
- Vehicle Fuel
- Equipment
- Workwear / ID Badge
2.​I understand I owe the sum of £2,500.00 to XXX in ​respect of the following training and set up costs incurred by the Company :-
​- Initial Set Up Recruitment Costs
​- Academy Running Costs
​- Trainers Time
​- External Verifiers Costs
​​​​​​​​​​
​from the 3 year White Goods / Domestic Appliance Engineer Apprenticeship I have recently ​partly undertaken
3. ​I also understand that I am liable for the insurance excess of £250.00 due to the ​Company Vehicle under my responsibility being returned damaged.
4. ​I understand any final monies owed to me will be offset against the debt of £2,750.00 and ​the final amount left will be owed by me to the business.
5. ​I agree to repay the remaining amount by monthly instalments as follows :-
5. I agree to set up a Direct Debit to pay the agreed payments into the following ​Account:-
HSBC bank account
Name: ​XX
Sort code: ​XX
Account No:​ XX
6. ​I agree to set up the Direct Debit within 5 working days from receipt of this Agreement, ​and in any event by 25-05-2016.
7. ​If I renege on this agreement, or fail to agree to repay the amount I understand I am ​obligated to repay the remaining debt in full - immediately - or face court proceedings.
​Signed : ​​​​​​​​
Date : ​​​​​​
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
In the contract it states
If you leave the company within 4 years of having completed your 3 year apprenticeship then you may be liable to repay etc etc
Expert:  Ben Jones replied 1 year ago.

Ok so legally they can try and deduct the money from your wages which they have done. That does not mean that the deductions are fair or that they can make them but to start with they can make these deductions. The rest will need to be pursued separately, such as by them making a court claim against you. In the circumstances you cannot prevent them from making these deductions but you can challenge them over these and try to get back what you are due. As mentioned your argument would be that the clause only applies if you ‘leave’ and that would imply that it is a voluntary decision by you rather than as a result of the employer’s decision