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Ash
Ash, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 10915
Experience:  Solicitor with 5+ years experience
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Alex, I've got a new question can you help. Regards, Dave

Customer Question

Hello Alex, I've got a new question can you help. Regards, Dave
Submitted: 5 months ago.
Category: Law
Expert:  Ash replied 5 months ago.

Sure. What's up?

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Sorry, Alex, I've not enclosed the question yet. I will do, it's my partners birthday today and will come back to you over the weekend if that's okay and waiting to see if the other side will respond to my letter. I was not sure if Ash was you and wanted to deal with you as you've dealt with previous matters. I know that the money has been remitted to you but I hope that it's okay to prepare the question and go from there. Thanks, Dave
Expert:  Ash replied 5 months ago.

Sure Dave.

Ash, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 10915
Experience: Solicitor with 5+ years experience
Ash and 3 other Law Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hi Alex, sorry for the delay, I am still in the process of trying to prepare the question or may be this is the question. There has been a developement, the other side have written to the CIrcuit Judge explaining that the matter should be dealt with at the Court of Appeal. I've written to the court attaching email evidience from the Court confirming that the appeal should be lodged at the County Court. The other side are saying that a final hearing for a muti-track case should be appealed at the court of appeal, that may be right, however, the other side issued a new counter claim (during the original claim) which bored the same case number ***** that trial hearing was discontinued by the other side, therefore the case was never concluded. The order I am appealing relates to the original trial, however, the re-amended counter claim was never concluded. The Circuit Judge listed permission to appeal hearing at the County Court, surely the Judge would not make a mistake about the right Court or would they?As per my previous question you helped me with, I sent a letter to the other side inviting them to respond within 14 days, if they don't respond, should I send a letter to the original Judge inviting the Judge to comment or should I formally lodge a CTP application?Are you able to assist with the CTP application?It might be better dealt with via a phone call but I need some help on the matter.Regards,Dave
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Letter from myself to the Court last Friday.Dear Sirs,I am writing in response to a letter I’ve received from XXX (attached in this email) alleging the appeal should be heard at the Court of Appeal and not at Guildford County Court.I wrote to Guildford County Court (email string below prior to submitting the appellants N161) to ask to which court Your Response Ltd should appeal and I enclose the Court’s response on the 18th April 2016 stating Guildford County Court.The January 2015 hearing was not the final hearing in the sense that the re-amended counter claim was still ongoing and part of the original trial. It bore the same Court case number. The Respondents discontinued their re-amended counter claim in January 2016. The overall issue regarding the independently audited ABC Certificates were admitted for trial by District Judge Bell but they were never heard and the case was not concluded.I look forward to hearing from you shortly as to what I should do now.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Letter to the Court from the other side to the Court.We have now had further opportunity to consider the position in the light of receipt of the Notice of Application for permission to appeal in Form N161.As a primary consideration we are drawing the attention of the Court to the Practice Direction to CPR Part 52. Under Section 3 of the Practice Direction destinations of appeal are to be determined in accordance with (in the case of proceedings other than family or insolvency) table 1 which forms part of the Practice Direction.The destination for an appeal from the final decision of a District Judge in a multi track claim brought under Part 7 is to the Court of Appeal. For these purposes "final decision" is defined as a decision of a Court that would finally determine (subject to any possible appeal or detailed assessment of costs) the entire proceedings whichever way the Court decided the issues before it. (3.6 of PD 52A)The application for permission is in respect of District Judge Bell's determination of the counterclaim which was brought in proceedings under Part 7 that were allocated to the multi track and determined on that basis.Although permission was given for leave to re-amend the counterclaim directions made by District Judge Bell in respect of that re-amended counterclaim were dealt with entirely separately and as such do not in anyway alter the fact that the determination of the counterclaim on the 15th January 2015 was a "final decision" for the purposes of the destination of any subsequent appeal or application for permission.We are sending a copy of this letter to the Appellant and drawing the Court's attention to this point as a preliminary matter which we invite the Court to reconsider at this stage. It will be our intention to make further and more detailed representations on the jurisdictional issue at the hearing before the Circuit Judge on the 8th September in the event that matters proceed at presently listed.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Probably best to arrange a call at a suitable time. Regards, Dave
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, I believe you have received the payments, when is a good time to speak?I am around this afternoon if you are...
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Do you have a number?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
01342 842685
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
What time are you available as I have to pop out tonight.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Hi - let me know when you are free

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I can do it in two halves as need to put children to bed. I am free now on 01342 842685.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

OK

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex,Before we speak to conclude the other half, could you respond to these points so I can digest and pick up from where we left.Is the other side entitiled to the appeal being heard at the court of appeal or should the appeal be before heard before a circuit judge? The appellants have never appealed before this is the first time. The respondents argument in January 2015 was the "final" hearing and a multi track case. The appellants argument is the re-amended counter claim was never heard and bored the same case number ***** therefore the matter was not concluded.Alex, can you explain your thoughts please.Comment from my local Solicitor.STARTDear *****I am afraid I think you have misunderstood the rules. If a party is taken to court by someone who loses their case it is 99.9 certainty that that party will be ordered to pay the other parties`.I am sure that you are at risk of being ordered to pay the respondents costs if the Judge dismisses your applicationENDAlex, can you explain your thoughts here please.In the event the other side do not respond within 14 days, should I,a. Write back to the respondents giving them 7 more days and if they fail to respond the matter will be reffered to the original DJ
b. Write a letter to the original DJ explaining that the appellants were given 14 days to comment about the ABC evidence and their witness statements, I invite the Court to give directions on this matter before I lodge a Committal to prison application via N244.
c. Write a letter to DJ expaining point B and attach an CTP application in N244 with witness statements and evidence. (Will I need to prepare a witness statement)Are you about today?
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Sorry the 14 days is referring to the letter the other side received inviting them to comment about their clients witness statements and the independent evidence that has been discovered.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Final decision from a DJ - Court of Appeal

Interim decision DJ - CJ

We spoke and you said it was an interim.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
This may help.June 2013 The appellants won the entire trial
June 2013 The respondents after judgement asked for an appeal which was refused by DJ
July 2013 The respondents apply for an appeal direct to the court of appeal (is that because it's final at that point or beacause the verbal appeal by DJ was refused)March*****of appeal the respondents win their "lien" point
August 2014 The respondents issue a new counter claim and re-amend their counter claim (which bores the same case number) pending trial
January 2015 - The March 2014 Court of appeal rulling is referred back to DJ to assess wether losses were caused for withholding data "lien" point. DJ rules appellant's caused loss (which the appellants are now appealling out of time)December 2015 PTR prior to trial January 2016 for re-amended counter claim. DJ admits evidence relating to the original trial and the re-amended counter claim.January 2016 The respondents discontinue their re-amended counter claimJuly 2016 The appellants lodge appeal out of timeWhat do you classify as final?I really need to satify Mark my Solicitor about the "costs" for the permission as he is worried for me that I will be liable...
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

So was this a preliminary ruling, before any trial?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Sorry, are you referring to a ruling from the Court of appeal? The court of appeal ruling was in March 2014 and then the respondents issued another claim against my company for further lossess shortly after which had a trial window of April 2015 which was adjourned to January 2016.In the middle of all of this was the January 2015 hearing which the court of appeal referred back to DJ for judgement for wronglfully withholding data.Following this judgement, I had 21 days to appeal which never happened and later the "non-disclosed evidence was dug up and found"Does that help.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Not really.

Focus one at a time.

The decision which you are going to appeal. What was the chronology of Court dates?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I thought I just did that in my earlier message.June 2013 original trial appellants win
March 2014 Court of appeal ruling "lien" point and the matter is referred back to DJ for judgement
August 2014 Conference case management (Respondents plead further losses) DJ says No they can't introduce new pleaded losses to the original trial and orders a new trial window to hear evidence and submit witness statements by November 2014)
January 2015 DJ makes a decision whether the "lien" point casued the respondents to reconstitute their database and rules in favor or the respondents
April 2015 (the hearing for the new pleaded losses is to be heard but adjourned to January 2016)
November 2015 the appellants file application to Court and introduce new evidence (out of time) for the January 2016 trial.
December 2015 PTR DJ admits all the ABC certificates which support the original trial and re-amended counter claim
January 2016 The respondents discontinueMight be easier to talk if I am not editing this correctly.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Ok, D apply to discontinue. You are appealing the December 2015 matter?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Sorry i dont understand what you mean.. Lost. I am appealing the january 2015 Order and the respondents discontinued the re-amended counter claim (action they brought). I am really sorry if this is frustrating for you but it's frustrating for me as well.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
not sure what D apply to discontinue means?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Yes Jan 2015 is still interim

D discontinue means the other side.

Does that clarify?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Okay, are you confirming that the "January 2015" is an interim hearing, therefore, the matter is not final and the appeal should be heard in the County Court.Based on the information I have provided should the appeal be heard at the County Court or the Court of Appeal?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

County Court - interim decision

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Right, should I write this to the court or leave it and wait for their reply?
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
I need to speak to respond to my Solicitors email as he is worried I could be liable for the costs from the other side should permission be refused. While I respect your comments and referred Mark to CPR 44.10, Mark is not convinced that it addresses costs and needs convincing. How do I respond to him please as discussed previously in my earlier question.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Typo.I need to respond to my Solicitors email as he is worried I could be liable for the costs from the other side should permission be refused. While I respect your comments and referred Mark to CPR 44.10, Mark is not convinced that it addresses costs and needs convincing. How do I respond to him please as discussed previously in my earlier question.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Are you available now to complete the call to run through things please. I am on 01342 842685.
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Or we can do Thursday as I am not around tomorrow.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

OK

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, have you completed a commital order CTP before on an N244, and is it something you can help me with? Do I need to compile a witness statement or only provide the N244 applicaiton, the 14 letter to the other side which the 14 days has now expired, the respondents witness statements and the ABC evidence in one bundle...
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Yes you need a witness statement. Its a bundle of evidence which sets out what was happened, when etc.

Does that clarify?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Ash, I have been working on my witness statment today and prepared a draft. Are you about over the weekend or away.Sheila (credible witness at the main trial) has submitted a witness statement for the appeal. Should I ask Sheila to provide a witness statement as well and we can extract the right paragraphs from Sheila's (appeal witness) statement.I've never applied for a CTP before is this a matter for both parties to be cross examined at a trial... Or will the Judge invite the respondents in the first instance to "admit or deny" such allegations and post a trial date.It might be best for me to send my draft witness statement to you and set up a time to talk. I really need to post this Tuesday to arrive Wednesday as the permission to appeal hearing is on the 8th September 2016.Let me know your thoughts.Regards,Dave
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Sorry, I meant to say Alex... It's your name above on the web site...!
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, are you about tomorrow.The commital order, in cpr 81.14 do I need to send to the high court to get permission first to make the application or can I send straight to the county court?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Tomorrow yes.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
What time are you available today?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

What time would be good for you?

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, are we able to do in two halves. Are you availble in 10 minutes as I have to collect my son from nursery at 3 ish.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Sure.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
sorry i forgot to ask there are two witnesses, one a director and the other an employee who has now left the company... Should i include the witness statements for just the director or include both to strenghten the points. If the member of staff has left the company would they still be asked to admit or deny?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Yes, include EVERYTHING.......

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
okay thanks.
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

No problem

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Sorry Alex, but which division to I lodge the matter to the High Court. I know it's not family etc, but which one...
Administrative Court
Queens Bench Court
Cival appeal Court
Criminal appeals Court
Chancery Court
Bancruptcy Court
Central London division Court
Central London County Court
Family Court
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Queens Bench, but check with the local County Court.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
okay thanks. should i send the application to only the solicitors or to the witnessess addresses printed on their witness statements?
Expert:  Ash replied 4 months ago.

Solicitors as they are represented.

Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, sorry, I forgot a couple of things... how much the N208 form is, I think you said £528 pounds can you refer me to this information please or via a link or something. Also, the N208 is a two page form that says Legal representative’s costs (do I leave this blank) as not sure what to put and it says Claimants and defendants... My witness statement refers to respondents and appellants is that okay to use...
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, are you available today? I need to email the N208 application to the other side and just needed to polish this up. I can't remember if i had five minutes left or we need to start a fresh time. Regards, Dave
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, can I set up a new question please. I've received a bundle from the other side which they intend to rely on for the permission to appeal and they are sending me a skeleton argument tomorrow outlining the reasons why I should not be entitled to an appeal.I've spoken to the Solicitors today for the other side. I said that the Order does not invite the other side to serve any documents to the appellants. The Solicitor said "I wouldnt expect it would, we are entitled to serve a respondents for the purpose of application however. The Solicitors said that it doesnt matter and its on notice to us. It is a matter for us to decide what papers want to serve and we are notice" He keeps repeating the word we are on notice.I thought you said that I would not be liable for any costs and rule 44.10 says that only the appellants are responsible for their costs, furthermore, they are sending me a skeleton argument two days before the hearing and this is not on the Order. Should I not have sufficient time to read the skeleton argument?Can you help me please as I am stuck here and need some more information.Regards,Dave
Customer: replied 4 months ago.
Hello Alex, are you online?

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