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Andrew Smith
Andrew Smith, Plumber
Category: Plumbing
Satisfied Customers: 3629
Experience:  City and Guilds qualified plumber
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hi i have had problems with the heating system and eventually

Resolved Question:

hi i have had problems with the heating system and eventually got it working, this is on an s plan system gravity fed water with fully pressurised boiler and two valves with cylinder stat and room stat, it was working fine for 24 hours turned it off at the room stat but the following morning would not fire up and now have a live feed through all neutral in the junction box below the programmer any ideas please? Steve
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Plumbing
Expert:  Andrew Smith replied 3 years ago.

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you try disconnecting the brown from each valve and try again?

Customer:

have tried that and still no joy, the neutral still remains live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ok, put the browns back and take the greys out and let me know

Customer:

Have tried that, the neutrals are still live.

Customer:

have disconected each seperate item individually and still getting this neutral live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ok, put them back, can you take the clock off the backplate and try again?

XXXXX XXXXX :

What voltage are you getting neutral to earth?

Customer:

240 volts and yes removed clock off the backplate and the neutrals are no longer live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ok, can you put the timer back on and turn off the heating and hot water and try again

Customer:

put the timer back on and the neutral becomes live again

XXXXX XXXXX :

Do you have any wires connected to terminals 1 and 2 on the backplate?

Customer:

we have, a live, a neutral, twin core into 1 and 2 and twin core into 3 and 4 however 1 an 2 are in a terminal block totally seperated from anything else

XXXXX XXXXX :

terminals 1 and 2 give power when the heating and hot water are off

XXXXX XXXXX :

You do not need them for an S plan

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you trace that pair?

XXXXX XXXXX :

Or disconnect them

XXXXX XXXXX :

Full Size Image

Customer:

both disconnected in back plate and still neutrals are live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you confirm you have not run a neutral to the cylinder stat?

Customer:

brown - hw on

Customer:

brown - ch on

Customer:

blue - hw

Customer:

common/brown goes to and links to hot water on

Customer:

Demand/blue goes to and links to brown hot water valve

XXXXX XXXXX :

ok - 2 wires to the cyl stat

Customer:

yes

XXXXX XXXXX :

2 wires to the room stat

Customer:

3 to room stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

a neutral?

Customer:

neutral , demand , common

XXXXX XXXXX :

can you ensure they are the right way round, remove the neutral (it will still work)

XXXXX XXXXX :

unless it is a Drayton then you will get no click

Customer:

horstmann hrt 3 red in terminal 1

Customer:

yellow in 3

Customer:

neutral in 4

XXXXX XXXXX :

ok take out the neutral and try again

Customer:

removed neutral and still getting live neutrals

XXXXX XXXXX :

(stands back with hand on chin to think)

XXXXX XXXXX :

we stopped it by taking the clock off

XXXXX XXXXX :

we have nothing in terminals 1 and 2

Customer:

that i can understand, because it was wired up this way and worked until this morning.

Customer:

yes nothing in terminal 1 and 2

XXXXX XXXXX :

Take the clock off

XXXXX XXXXX :

if you drop a link between live and 3 the hot water should fire

XXXXX XXXXX :

if you drop a link in between live and 4 the heating should fire

XXXXX XXXXX :

Is it a mechanical clock?

Customer:

yes in an old potterton mini minder

XXXXX XXXXX :

does it still grind, moan and turn?

Customer:

you get nothing at all, just gonna try the linking you suggested

Customer:

Just to let you know it is a myson apollo 30/50 boiler

XXXXX XXXXX :

Myson Apollo - saviour of the 80's

Customer:

was fabulous until an electrician came to wire it into the new consumer unit and then could not put it back together

XXXXX XXXXX :

I love electricians, they create so much work for me on heating systems!

Customer:

yes i bet they do, basically we had two old bakerlight type junction boxes from the boiler and he wanted to put them into a new junction box prior to connecting them to the new unit and he didnt know what he was doing.

XXXXX XXXXX :

Has the boiler fired with the links?

Customer:

just doing it now

XXXXX XXXXX :

leave the clock front off

Customer:

no change

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you check the neutral for voltage (against the earth)

Customer:

240 volts

XXXXX XXXXX :

arrrrrghhhhhhh!

Customer:

we have had new pump, new thermostat, new programmer and a new overrun thermostat lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ok what you need to do is follow the live, each circuit at a time through each stat to the motorised valve brown wire

XXXXX XXXXX :

do one circuit at a time with one link and see if you get 240v at the neutral

XXXXX XXXXX :

do this with the live disconnected from the terminal box upstairs

Customer:

which live would that be the one from the fused spur or the boiler

XXXXX XXXXX :

it could be a faulty motorised valve motor, but we would have found that when disconnecting the browns upstairs

XXXXX XXXXX :

no, looking at the diagram

XXXXX XXXXX :

the ones the greys are connected to

Customer:

i have one grey connected to live terminal and the other to the common cylinder stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

Both greys and oranges should be connected together - look at the diagram

XXXXX XXXXX :

The greys are the live feed to the microswitches

XXXXX XXXXX :

The orange feed the pump and boiler when opened

XXXXX XXXXX :

This could be the problem.......

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you print the drawing and work from it?

XXXXX XXXXX :

An S plan is wired in parallel

XXXXX XXXXX :

Heating live to room stat to motorised valve brown

XXXXX XXXXX :

Water live to cyl stat to motorised valve brown

XXXXX XXXXX :

DONE!

XXXXX XXXXX :

Greys together to live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Oranges together to pump and boiler live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Neutrals ALL together

Customer:

Full Size Image

Customer:

this is how the system has been on since the electrician messed up and it did work for 24 hours

XXXXX XXXXX :

Its wrong!

XXXXX XXXXX :

No heating on to grey heating valve?

Customer:

ok will go and swap few wires and see lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Greys are permanently live, even with the clock off

XXXXX XXXXX :

Looking at it, that is the only wrong wire, grey into L

Customer:

well that didnt work either lol

Customer:

still getting permanant live down the neutrals

XXXXX XXXXX :

At least its wired right now, can you go through the drawing I sent you one wire at a time, although the book is nearly right.

XXXXX XXXXX :

Is the clock back on?

Customer:

yes

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ok, clock off and link between live and 3

XXXXX XXXXX :

You should only have a live to the cylinder stat, then out to the motor on the hw mot valve

XXXXX XXXXX :

Live to the greys but not on the orange if the valve does not open

Customer:

every terminal in block is now live apart from earth

XXXXX XXXXX :

Can you disconnect the live that comes from the cyl stat and see what is still live?

Customer:

live and 3 still linked and remains live, two greys are live and the main live in thats all that is live at present

XXXXX XXXXX :

that is correct

XXXXX XXXXX :

so do you have a problem with the motorised valve if you reconnect it?

Customer:

reconnect what? the valve is still connected

XXXXX XXXXX :

is the valve open?

Customer:

hw or ch

Customer:

both in auto position

XXXXX XXXXX :

hw because you have linked L and 3 in the programmer

XXXXX XXXXX :

is the N still reading 240V?

Customer:

no

XXXXX XXXXX :

can you push the lever on the valve - is it slack or tight?

Customer:

tight

XXXXX XXXXX :

ok, so closed

XXXXX XXXXX :

do you have 240V across the brown and blue to the valve?

Customer:

the multi meter not working all we have is power to the mains live and to the hot water link

XXXXX XXXXX :

so no power upstairs through the cylinder thermostat to the motor

Customer:

no because we disconnected the cylinder stat live as you suggested

XXXXX XXXXX :

I meant upstairs after the stat - can you reconnect and follow the power through the stat but leave the motorised valve disconnected

XXXXX XXXXX :

we just need to make sure the power gets upstairs first

Customer:

which colour wire do we disconnect from the motorised valve

XXXXX XXXXX :

brown

XXXXX XXXXX :

that is the one that makes the motor turn and the valve open

Customer:

so recconect the cylinder stat brown to hw and disconnect hw brown

XXXXX XXXXX :

disconnect brown to HW motorised valve

Customer:

now have power to terminal 3,6 8 on the terminal block on your diagram

Customer:

sorry 1,6,8

XXXXX XXXXX :

correct

Customer:

you gonna tell me the valve broke now?

XXXXX XXXXX :

how is the neutral?

Customer:

fine

XXXXX XXXXX :

ok, reconnect the brown to the motorised valve and tell me if it opens?

Customer:

no it dont open but i now have live at all terminal apart from the earth

XXXXX XXXXX :

F**ked valve then.

Customer:

lmao thanks

XXXXX XXXXX :

Leave it disconnected and then link L and 4 downstairs and follow the heating through to the valve

Customer:

room stat flashing, and slight noise from valve sounded like motor trying to turn, neutral back to live

XXXXX XXXXX :

Surely not 2 knackered valves?

Customer:

my thinking lol, would have been cheaper to buy new system at this rate

XXXXX XXXXX :

you can buy a new S plan kit for about £120

XXXXX XXXXX :

do you need heating and hot water?

Customer:

we sold the house just want it working we move out in 3 weeks lol been here 7 years and had no issues lol

Customer:

would be nice, you got some spare not had more than 24 hours since last wednesday

XXXXX XXXXX :

if you open each motorised valve by latching it

Customer:

do i need to disconect both brown from each valve

XXXXX XXXXX :

yes

XXXXX XXXXX :

then latch them manually

Customer:

now have live in 1,2,4,5,10

XXXXX XXXXX :

is the pump and boiler running?

XXXXX XXXXX :

Live at 2??????

Customer:

yes neutral live again room stat lit up and all live in stat

Customer:

no pump and boiler not running

XXXXX XXXXX :

Are you able to disconnect one at a time until it kills the power at 2 and see where it is coming from?

XXXXX XXXXX :

This is stopping the boiler firing

Customer:

what do i need to disconnect one at a time

XXXXX XXXXX :

the neutrals, while it is fault we need to trace where the power is coming from to identify the faulty part/wiring

XXXXX XXXXX :

Take one out and check for power, if still live then replace it and remove another

Customer:

okay wont be long

XXXXX XXXXX :

....going nowhere

Customer:

remove neutral from terminal block from room stat and now neutrals are neutral however put the tester on the neutral on the room stat itself and power from the actual room stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

and you are sure it is wired correctly - do you want to check the blue wire at the stat?

Customer:

all three terminal at the stat are showing live, wired up according to plan on new stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

not good

Customer:

you dont say

XXXXX XXXXX :

perhaps the wiring is not continuous throughout?

Customer:

should be has been working for seven years and none of it has been changed

XXXXX XXXXX :

ok, leave the neutral disconnected and see if you can get the pump and boiler running by linking the ornage and grey

XXXXX XXXXX :

with the 2 valve open manually

Customer:

ok

Customer:

on both

XXXXX XXXXX :

both oranges should be together

XXXXX XXXXX :

both greys should be together

XXXXX XXXXX :

just link the 2 connections

XXXXX XXXXX :

(listening quietly for the bang....)

Customer:

do we leave the other lives in situ, ie the pump and boiler and the live in from mains

XXXXX XXXXX :

yes

XXXXX XXXXX :

(still no bang!)

Customer:

still doing it lol

Customer:

hope you live far enough away lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Nottingham?

Customer:

near northampton so shouldnt hear it lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Perhaps a loud bang?

Customer:

no bang and boiler fired up lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Horray!!!!!!!!!

XXXXX XXXXX :

What to do now......

XXXXX XXXXX :

1. Turn the boiler on and off at the fused spur

XXXXX XXXXX :

2. Always leave the heating valve open

XXXXX XXXXX :

3. Open and close the heating valve manually as you need heating

XXXXX XXXXX :

4. Use the boiler thermostat to control the temperature of your hot water

XXXXX XXXXX :

5. Move out!

XXXXX XXXXX :

6. Sack the electrician

XXXXX XXXXX :

7. Shoot the person who wrote that book!

XXXXX XXXXX :

Sorry 2. Always leave the hot water valve open

Customer:

we will but we cant leave it like this for good, so what needs replacing and it was Ray Ward

XXXXX XXXXX :

Hard to tell

XXXXX XXXXX :

It could be a wiring fault as well as the hot water motorised valve

XXXXX XXXXX :

You also have a faulty room stat - or wiring to it

Customer:

on the connecter block within the boiler you have a pump live, neutral then an on terminal, there was a twin flex connected in the on connected to a bakerlight junction block assumed going upstairs to main junction box this has been an issue and confused us as to why it was linked this way

XXXXX XXXXX :

This means that you have a pump overrun and the pump must be wired directly to the boiler

XXXXX XXXXX :

You should have a N connection

XXXXX XXXXX :

a permanent L connection

XXXXX XXXXX :

a switched L connection

XXXXX XXXXX :

and a Pump Live connection?

Customer:

it wasnt there originally someone put that in themselves before we moved in

XXXXX XXXXX :

nice!

XXXXX XXXXX :

didn't you say you were moving....

Customer:

yes but cant leave it like this

XXXXX XXXXX :

I think the simplest thing to do would be rewire it

XXXXX XXXXX :

Use some 4 core cable from the programmer in 1 piece - no joints

XXXXX XXXXX :

3 core for the room stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

2 core for the cylinder stat

XXXXX XXXXX :

and the junction box upstairs

XXXXX XXXXX :

Should cost you about £60

XXXXX XXXXX :

Then leave the 2 port valves disconnected and wire one at a time and see what happens

Customer:

do you want to take the wife shopping saturday in wellingborough lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

It will be cheaper than getting you crap electrician to do it!

XXXXX XXXXX :

Use the diagram I sent you and it should take you about 4 hours

XXXXX XXXXX :

Ignore the wiring for the pump - wire it straight to the boiler - although I have never had a problem with the boiler wired directly as an S plan, just manufacturer's recommendations

Customer:

ok thankyou so much really appreciate it, you have been the only person to be of any help, will have a go at the weekend and see what we can do. many many thanks again.

XXXXX XXXXX :

No problem

XXXXX XXXXX :

Thanks for making my head hurt!

Customer:

our has done for a week now lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

Come back if you need me again

Customer:

Thanks we will x

Customer:

By the way this is the wife not hubby lol

XXXXX XXXXX :

That's why it is polite.....

XXXXX XXXXX :

Tell him to get it fixed - NOW!

XXXXX XXXXX :

That's how it works in our (my) house....

Customer:

Maybe thanks again, speak soon lol, i will lol

Andrew Smith, Plumber
Category: Plumbing
Satisfied Customers: 3629
Experience: City and Guilds qualified plumber
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