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Ask Dr. Michael Salkin Your Own Question

Dr. Michael Salkin
Dr. Michael Salkin, Veterinarian
Category: Vet
Satisfied Customers: 26223
Experience:  University of California at Davis graduate veterinarian with 44 years of experience.
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I have a eight year old bird a finch I raised myself

Customer Question

Hello. I have a eight year old bird a finch I raised myself from 2 days old. She is a lone bird and laid her first eggs when she was 2 years old. She had passed an egg with a broken shell and had some sort of seizure and probably egg peritonitis. She remarkably recovered from this but every year she goes through this egging thing but does not actually lay any eggs. She gets the swollen abdomen which lasts about two months then the swelling goes back down. She gets a lump on her body across from the top of her tail the size of a pea with the egg phase.Last September she started having very bad runny poop. It was like pea soup with an awful odour which reminds me of a cooked egg white though stronger. She has always had green poop. White urates and clear urine. But when she gets smelly runny poop it will eventually turn into brown runny liquid causing her to lose weight over time. She still gets this .I purchased some antibiotics from usa for her which worked but they do not work anymore. She is probably immuned to them. She takes a medicine in her water I bought from a place called my safe bird store which is a tincture milk thistle and dandilion 3 times a week. I had two lots of culture tests done and they came back some being positive. I need to know what this means . Giardia was not seen. No worm eggs or coccidia no cryptosporidia. Campylobacter not isolated. Salmonella not isolated. But culture escherichia coli was isolated and fungal culture + candida spp was isolated. What do the last 2 mean. ? Clearly shows candida and ecoli but to what degree. Thank you.
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Vet
Expert:  Shantal-Mod replied 1 year ago.
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Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I'm sorry that your question wasn't answered in a timely manner. We don't have many avian-oriented vets on the site. Considering Jasmine's history I'm going to assume that the culture was taken from her cloaca (vent). Please correct me if I'm wrong. The finding of any gram negative bacteria such as E. coli is abnormal in our birds. Similarly, yeast shouldn't be found in the cloaca and so both an antibiotic shown to be effective against E.coli in the bacterial culture and sensitivity that was performed and nystatin should be prescribed by Jasmine's vet to be dosed directly into Jasmine's beak. Adding drugs to the drinking water is ill-advised if only because an ill bird won't drink enough to medicate itself properly.
When the cloaca is cultured we're actually culturing what's present in both the oviduct and gastrointestinal tract and so clarifying source of the infection might not be possible. We're also constrained by the size of a finch when it comes to blood work and X-rays.
Please respond with further questions or concerns if you wish.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hello. No the sample taken was a 48 hour fecal sample. I do not have any bird vets in my area only many miles away and she is to sick to travel that far. Even bringing her out of her cage stresses her. So are you saying that the candida and e coli should not be positive in her test results.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
What antibiotic would be suitable for e coli. I have no idea why this keeps happening. Her food is always replaced daily. Her water is changed 4 times a day. She does however have a thing about eating the sand from her sand sheets.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Ah! I understand. The bacterial culture and sensitivity should have identified the antibiotics most likely to address the E. coli. If you don't have access to that information, pragmatically speaking 1 drop of injectable enrofloxacin daily directly into her beak for a minimum of 10 days should be effective. E. coli is difficult to avoid. It's easy to transfer from our hands to fomites - inanimate objects. Perhaps the original vet who did the culture can call a local vet who can put up a small amount of enrofloxacin for you. That's really not legal but I won't tell if you don't.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
No I wouldn't tell. Why do you think she keeps eating her sand sheets. I stop her when I can. Is she lacking in something as she has no feathers underneath her. Her cage is adapted for disability because she was born with crooked legs and cannot perch. So she sits on her cage floor. I put the sand sheets upside down so they don't hurt her legs. She leans forward with her head through cage a lot and has done this for many years. But she eats the sand sheets.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Investigative behavior or a desire for grit. Does she have an oyster shell mineral mix grit available and a vitamin supplement containing vitamin D3 in her water such as Oasis brand? You can also add a calcium supplement such as Calciboost or Calcivet to her water along with the vitamin supplement.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just one more question if you wouldn't mind please. I give her a probiotic with prebiotics called avian pro by vetark. She loves the taste and refuses to eat her greens unless I sprinkle it over them. As she drinks quite a lot of water which way would be more beneficial to put the avian pro in the drinking water or over food. Which method would work the best
Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
If she refuses to eat her greens unless it's sprinkled over them, it would seem to me that that's just what you should do. I don't see a problem with also adding some to her drinking water as long as she doesn't find it distasteful.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi I have spoken to my local vet over the telephone but sadly the antibiotic you mention is not available here. Enrofloxacin. As my vets are not bird vets they can't help. is there an alternative antibiotic she could have. Amoxicillin or flucloxacillin maybe?Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Amoxicillin is worth a try. I would dose it at 150 mg/kg twice daily. A finch weighing 20 g (0.02 kg) would receive 3 mg. I would need to know what concentration of amoxicillin you could get to be able to tell you the volume you would need to administer into her beak.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
She only weighs 5 grams she a little zebra finch. I've managed to find a vets that sell baytril so I will get some. To put into her drinking water, however I am not sure about the nasty side effects I have read online but she is gravely ill sleeping a lot. I really think it's the candida making her so I'll as she sometimes has what looks like a silver whitish film in her poop like a grease. And it smells like a smokey bacon to a sweet kind of smell. The vet has not got anything to treat candida in birds.
Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Thank you for the update. Such an ill bird won't drink enough to medicate itself properly through the drinking water. It would be best if you could manage to get a drop into her beak once daily. I understand that you're going above and beyond. I applaud your efforts.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi I have the baytril it's in a syringe 2.5% the vet who specialises in dogs not birds said to put one drop in 30 drops of water. Could you please give your opinion on this. I would be very grateful. Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I can't recommend dosing birds through their drinking water. A partial drop as from a small eyedropper instilled once daily into her beak is her best chance of being medicated properly. We want to give her 1 mg once daily. Each 1 ml of that 2.27% Baytril contains 22.7 mg and so one small drop (approximately 1/20th of a ml) will contain approximately 1 mg.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I am unable to pick her up as it causes her discomfort but at the moment if I pass her the drinking water she will drink from it as I think she is getting dehydrated . So would you agree with one drop of baytril to 30 drops of water. She drinks about 6 drops 8 times a day at present.Thanks ever so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
When diluted in that fashion she would need to ingest the entire 30 drops daily and so if she, indeed, is drinking 48 drops daily, she's being medicated satisfactorily. You're quite welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thank you. I am very concerned though with the effect the antibiotics will have on the candida. Should I continue with the avian probiotic and prebiotics which would have to be sprinkled on the food as her water will have baytril.Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Yes, that would be prudent.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
One more thing. I live in the United kingdom and there are hardly no bird products available so I have always got them from America as there is such a great range to chose from. I bought a product from my safe bird store its called herbal rx candida yeast be gone. There are herbs in it such as pau d arco and thyme etc I was using that but sadly it has not worked. I also bought a echinacea tincture to help strengthen her immune system. Do you recommend still using these or scrap the idea. I love this little bird she is my world and I have been trying all that I can to save her.Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
While unlikely to be harmful, there's no scholarly evidence that these remedies are of value - which appears to be the case - and so I can't recommend that you continue to administer them.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thank you. I will stop using them. Thank you ever so much for all your help and advice but before I go I was reading on the internet that Apple cider vinegar is good for the candida she has. What is your opinion on this. It does not really state how much to use in the water. Probably do not taste very nice. Is it safe to use this or could it cause internal bleeding or damage.Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Apple cider vinegar has been purported to be helpful for more disorders than I could list here. Unfortunately, nobody has ever shown that that's the case. I can't see any mechanism for oral acetic acid (apple cider vinegar) to be effective for addressing candida.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thank you. I don't think she will pull through as she has deteriorated very quickly. And sleeping almost all day which is ever so sad as I have a very close bond having raised her myself.
Thanks for your help.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Yes, and once our pet birds act ill they're already critically ill. This makes it very difficult to bring them back from the brink. I can't set a follow-up in this venue and so would appreciate your returning to our conversation with an update - even after rating - at a time of your choosing.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok I will. Thank you.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I can't find anywhere where it said to rate this. It was on there but when I replied it disappeared.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I regret that I'm not privy to your page. You should be given the opportunity to rate after I reply. If not, please contact***@******.*** who will help you.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok I will have to contact the support as there's no option to rate this but I am using a kindle so maybe that is why . I will try my computer. There seems to be a lot of nasty side effects to baytril I have read especially vomiting and refusing to eat. I know she was ok on the amoxicillin I bought in liquid form from America but only Amoxicillin I have now are 250 mg capsules so I thought using a grain or 2 in her soft food may be better. I don't know as it is very stressful seeing her in this condition.
Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I've found Baytril to be well-tolerated by my avian patients and encourage your using it.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thank you I will give it a try. I am staying up with her throughout the night watching her as I can't bare for her to be alone. With all the modern medicines available isn't there anything for the pain she is experiencing. This egging thing she goes through every year causes very bad swelling of her abdomen . She dont actually pass any eggs but just goes through the motions. Why she swells up I don't know. I know painkillers are bad for birds kidney function. I have kidney trouble myself so I know the dangers but there must be something I could give her for the pain she is experiencing. She is leaning to one side to get off her swelling.
Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
There is but it's a prescription nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drug (NSAID) called meloxicam which we prescribe most often for pain in pet birds. Our hope is that the Baytril will take care of an infection that's causing her that pain.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I was actually wondering if it's the candida that's making her very ill. I have read some terrible things on what it does to birds. I asked my local vets for nystatin but it's typical they don't stock it. I can order it from usa but it will take about three weeks to get here, it's usually british customs that's the problem. And time isn't on her side sadly.Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I was considering that the yeast might not even be inside her but grew on her droppings that you brought to be tested.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Yes that's a thought. She gets droppings stuck to her vent and tail. It dries like concrete, so hard to get off especially when she has so much discomfort it is hard to handle her. Her droppings smell quite bad. Usually like the white part of a fried egg and an antiseptic smell. It's very difficult knowing what is wrong with her without additional tests. But even if there was a bird vet here I wouldn't be able to take her . She is to set in her ways, it would give her a heart attack taking her. I think it is because she was raised by myself and only used to me and the room she lives in.
Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I understand. You're welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hello again Dr Salkin. This baytril I have for my finch is in a syringe but it is clear in color. I read on-line that it is yellow. I was hoping you could tell me if the 2.5% does come in the clear kind. I do get concerned as I have been given the wrong medication by accident in the past.Thank you so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Mine is clear.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Oh good. I only had about half of thimble full but when I pressed the syringe to put the medicine into the water, it all came shooting out onto the floor so I had to go back to my vets for some more though I did manage to get a drop that was left so she has drank all of it for today. So I assume she can carry on drinking her plain water for the rest of the day. There is no improvement yet but I suppose if it is a bacterial infection it will take some time to work.
Thank you ever so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Yes, I'd like to see a positive change within the first 3 days of its administration.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The baytril I have been given as a replacement has been poured into a little bottle it's clear like a syrup but there's like a patch of swirls in it which are white. Is this normal. I shook it gently but it's still there. I can't help worrying about everything.
Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I'm sorry. I don't know what the patch of white swirls indicates. You'll need to ask the prescribing vet.
Dr. Michael Salkin, Veterinarian
Category: Vet
Satisfied Customers: 26223
Experience: University of California at Davis graduate veterinarian with 44 years of experience.
Dr. Michael Salkin and other Vet Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thank you.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Actually it looks like part of it has cloudy parts in it. I will ring my vet tomorrow for peace of mind.Thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Sounds good.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Thank you for your kind accept. I appreciate it.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Your welcome. I am not working at the moment due to health troubles but I have managed to buy almost everything I could medicine etc from internet for birds but this little bird is everything to me. I have other birds but I have a very close bond with her and I suppose she thinks I am her mother after raising her from 2 days old. 8 years is quite a good age for a finch. You said in your last answer when I said the baytril looks clear but has cloudy bits so I will ring the practice and ask. You said sounds good. Does that mean the color sounds good or checking with vet. So sorry to ask you another question, but I would like to know. Thank you ever so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Checking with the vet. Sorry for the delay. I was hiking up and down a mountain 7.6 miles.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
My goodness that sounds like a challenge . Hiking 7.6 miles. Especially going up the mountain. Sounds very peaceful though. Sounds exhausting to. When I picked up my bird droppings as she sits on the cage floor due to her disabled legs I always keep her cage clean. It's 1.39 in the morning here and she has gone to sleep I am keeping a close watch over her due to being so worried about her but the last lot of droppings I cleaned up did not smell like the they have been doing. I don't know if it's a one off. I doubt the baytril would work that quick would it.Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
It could start to work quickly, yes...
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well that would be great. She starts to improve but then suddenly sort of gets worse again. Ok thanks ever so much for your quick reply.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi there. An update. Following our conversation yesterday. I spoke to a receptionist at the vets today and explained to her the baytril was a bit cloudy. It was put into a blood sample bottle. There is a white chalky residue but she said the date on it is good so should be fine. Today though my little finch refuses to drink the mixture. She seems more aware with what's going on today. I put a drop on my finger from the dropper to taste but it hardly tastes of anything. She will drink water with the probiotics in. I didn't want to take that water off her just in case she dehydrates. I cook fresh greens for her daily and hand feed it to her so would the antibiotic work if I put the diluted mixture on that. Or does it have to be drank rather than eating. I tried to open her beak to put some in but she is so tiny. She started getting a little frightened as she is so tame I can stroke her head. I would really appreciate your advice. So Sorry about the long typingThank you ever so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
Yes, you can put the antibiotic on the greens. Drinking or eating it is equivalent.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thank you. That is brilliant. I will have to do that. She sleeps quite a bit so I will try it that way. Thank you ever so much for replying back.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi I ment to ask you. When I was doing my own research some months ago trying to find some help for my finch. I read that baytril can have a damaging effect on kidneys. Is this something for me to be concerned about as I can imagine how tiny finches kidneys are. The negatives of the drug tend to show up more on the internet rather than the positives.Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
That hasn't been my experience. Baytril is my go-to antibiotic when I don't have a bacterial culture and sensitivity to go on and need to presumptively treat with an antibiotic.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
That's great to know. That's one thing less for me to worry about.
Thanks ever so much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome...worrywart!
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ha ha yes I sure am a worrywart!.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
It's OK...better than under-caring...
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I hope you don't mind me asking another question but you have been ever so helpful. I have had more help from you over these past few days than all the other vets I have seen over the years with my pets. I don't want to take up your time but I was wondering. Jasmine always spends a lot of her day leaning forward with her head out of the cage as there are little squares on the front rather than bars as it has been specially made . 6 years ago when she passed a soft broken egg and had a seizure she has spent the past 6 years doing this leaning forward . She is usually happy in herself singing, eating and drinking apart from now with this infection but I don't know why she sits like this. Impossible to know for sure but could there have been any damage to her ovi-duct from the previous egg laying. As its strange how she goes through this egging process ,swelling up but not actually laying-passing any eggs.
Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
I give up. Her preference, perhaps? I don't know of a medical disorder - including damage to her oviduct - that would cause such behavior.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Oh don't give up. It would seem she is uncomfortable sitting upright. Ok thank you very much. I will keep a close watch over her. Thanks.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
That makes as much sense as anything else.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just one more thing. I won't take up anymore of your time as I can appreciate your very busy. The baytril it's one drop to thirty drops of water. There is no instructions as to give her it all in a hour or two or to spread it out throughout the day. So would it be better giving it to her throughout her day rather than over a short time. Great thank you for all you help and advice.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
It's more effective as a one time dose but that just isn't possible for a finch. Do you best getting the 3 drops down throughout a 24 hour period.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok I will do that.Thanks ever so much.Have a nice day.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hello. Just an update on my finch. She was doing well. The smelly watery droppings went away but yesterday she refused to drink the medicine altogether. And she did not eat her soft food but only some sunflower seeds. I know it's one drop of baytril to 30 drops of water but if I were to try and give her one drop of baytril neat without water would this be overdosing her. Her runny smelly droppings have returned.Thank you very much.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
It sounds like that's just what you should do at this time. The Baytril appeared to be working but it was either underdosed or bacteria have become resistant to it in which case no amount of it will be helpful again.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I would say underdosed as she did not have any yesterday due to her choice not wanting to drink it. So I will try that. Ok thank you for answering my question. I appreciate it.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hello.
I took your advice and bought Jasmine some vitamin supplements to go in her drinking water. It is called BSP by vetark professional. It is one drop per 100mls of water. It contains vitamins A, C, E, B1, B2, B6, biotin, folic acid, nicotinic, panthonic acid and the vitamin D3. . It does not say how often to use it so could you please advise. Is it everyday or just couple times a week because of the D3. Thanks ever so much.RegardsEmma.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
It should be in her water at all times. Just make sure that she continues to drink because some of these supplements can make the water distasteful.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thank you.
Expert:  Dr. Michael Salkin replied 1 year ago.
You're welcome.

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