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plclegal
plclegal, Barrister
Category: Family Law
Satisfied Customers: 4255
Experience:  Barrister at law
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If an Italian parent brings their children (Italian by

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If an Italian parent brings their children (Italian by birth) over here in 2004 when they were, 6 and 3 years old and they are still living here in UK, does the other parent (residing in Italy) still have to adhere to Italian law regarding paying for child support or does British law replace Italian law at some point?
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Customer: replied 18 days ago.
Yes I'd still like to know the answer to this as other questions may be generated as a result

Hello, my name is Peter, I’ve been asked to look at this for you, thank you for your patience.

Please bear in mind as this is an email service and not live chat I may not respond immediately.

In my view this depends entirely if there is a court order in place from the Italian court or not. If so, then it still remains in force. If not, then if he stopped paying maintenance then I would imagine a claim would be made through the UK courts if the children are resident in the UK.

Can I clarify anything?

Can I assist you further with your question?

If you have further questions, you can always come back to me.

In the meantime, if you could take a second to provide a 5 star rating (top right of your screen) I'll be credited for my time spent responding to your question.

Kind regards,

Peter

 

Customer: replied 17 days ago.
Sorry by the time I spotted the email late last night I then had to relay the answer back to my friend in Italy.
His solicitor in Italy told him it was possible to have this converted to UK rules, so this is why he's asking me to check before he wastes more money on this.
I will use some of his sentences in speechmarks to ensure I don't get lost in personal interpretation.
"The Italian court order exists of course, but I want to know which laws could now be applied to this case as they have lived in UK for over 15 years and as far as I know, at least the eldest and the mother may have applied for UK citizenship."

"The Italian law states I have to pay until they are independent or they move from mother's house or they have an income that assures them the possibility to be independent, whereas his understanding of the UK law is that you have to pay till they are 18 or end of studies."

"This situation is complicated by the fact that I'm not able to get any information from them or the mother, as they just don't answer my requests for information through my solicitor as well as no contact over the last 11 years."

No correspondence to his children is replied to, so he's not even sure they receive them. Think he saw them for 15 minutes at a court case a few years ago last. The eldest daughter used to call him on a neighboour's phone when the Mother was not around or she passed on messages through the neighbour but sadly they moved away and neighbour died so that was the last honest communication he got.

He states the court order is more about the amount and frequency he pays (annually) than for how long for and it's this he'd like to know if this is feasible to get converted to using UK terms based on the fact the youngest is 18 and oldest is over 21.
Are there any circumstances or anyway that the Italian court order could be overruled/superseded by UK laws now they have been resident here for so long?
If not, how on earth does he find out when they are independent when they don't inform?
If he does have to continue to pay is there a way he can pay them directly now they are adults?
The custodial parent has used false UK court documents to try to get more money out of him in the past. I sent a copy of this document to the UK court but as far as I'm aware nothing was done with this.
Customer: replied 17 days ago.
There were two court cases in UK - one was the return of the daughters to their Father in Italy after they were abducted by their Mother but this was refused and resulted in some visitation rights. The second court case was created because the Mother did not respect the visitation rights.

OK.

The first point is that as both children are adults now, he is free to contact them directly - via whatever means he can think of. The mother cannot prevent this anymore. I would suggest reaching out to them via social media if he can track them down.

The second issue is that the Italian court order I don't think would stand up in the UK courts if the mother tried to enforce it in the UK. It could be enforced in Italy but as you have advised that the children and mother are UK resident and have been for some 15 years I don't think the Italian courts will have jurisdiction.

I hope this assists.

Can I assist you further with your question?

If you have further questions, you can always come back to me.

In the meantime, if you could take a second to provide a 5 star rating (top right of your screen) I'll be credited for my time spent responding to your question.

Kind regards,

Peter

Customer: replied 15 days ago.
Just want to ask for clarification as to what you've stated there.My friend could challenge in a UK court of Family Law that he's obliged to continue paying child maintenance when:-
a) the custodial parent has never met her own obligations in the UK court order (i.e. sending him an annual photo and school reports etc)
b) he has no access to valid information such as whether they are employed or in further education or applied for citizenship etc - has asked the custodial parent as well as his children)
c) they have been resident in UK for over 15 years so therefore should adhere to UK family law regarding child maintenance?
d) feels that the mother must have done everything to denigrate or alienate himself and his role from his daughters based upon her extreme ways to deter his visitation rights, that he has been blocked from their facebook sites, they have never replied to his letters and he is unaware of any attempt from their side to contact him since they were 16 or adults. Not sure how this is appropriately phrased but it it has had a huge negative impact on his life.
If you feel it's valid to enter the courts with this, then what is the method that he should use to activate this? What sort of costs are typical for this kind of case?
Should it be a solicitor/barrister with knowledge of Italian Family law etc.? Would he reopen the court case he used previously?  Is it done at a court in the city they reside or because he is Italian, it must happen in London?
If he is obliged to continue paying is it feasible to pay the children directly into their accounts? Italian law seems to state it's for the children rather than to the Mother 
I don't understand what would happen then regarding the Italian court order or does he in fact have to contest it there too?

 

My view is that the Italian order would not be enforceable in the UK courts, and that the Italian courts will not have jurisdiction based on residence in the UK. So as the children are both adults now my view is that he could simply stop paying as under the UK system, there would be no valid claim. I don't think he needs to go to court to discharge the order, in my view it has expired. If he contacts his children and wishes to continue to support them directly, then this is his choice in my view.

Obviously this is just my view - you are free to seek a second opinion from another expert here if you would like further counsel!

In the meantime, if you could take a second to provide a 5 star rating (at the top right of your screen), I'll be credited for my time spent responding to your question.

Kind regards,

Peter

Customer: replied 14 days ago.
So if the 18 year old is still going to college (guesswork) then wouldn't he still need to be "supporting" her, until she finishes at college? Further education support stops when as offspring doing RAF training or Masters etc could go on forever? But he has no evidence.
He suspects that he would need to go to a court to discharge the order as the Italian courts of law would not accept him saying he has simply decided to stop paying because he has no access to information regarding his daughters being self sufficient (which is when Italians feels a parent stops paying) if the Mother was to inform the Italian courts that he had ceased to pay. He feels he would have to produce a document from UK courts stating that he can cease payment due to ....etc if they deem he no longer needs to.
So much as he would have confidence in what you're saying, he;s not convinced courts in Italy would behave the same.
He's not sure where to approach with this matter in the UK though and whether he could approach himself without a legal representative?

I can't vouch for what the Italian courts may do but my view is that enforcement of the order would not be under Italian jurisdiction due to residence in the UK. As I said, please do seek a second opinion if needs be for reassurance.

Kind regards,

Peter

Customer: replied 14 days ago.
You will probably be right but he's been stung so many times, he's nervous to take that risk when it comes to Italian law.
Would you know which court/location he should approach in UK to try to get some documentation to state that he is free of obligation if they deem that so?

He should contact the CMS for confirmation in the first instance.

Customer: replied 7 days ago.
Sorry to understand that acronym - I'm getting the name of a law firm but I'm imagining it is more likely to represent Child M S? Where? London or in city his daughters reside?

Yes its the child maintenance service - contact details are here: https://www2.dwp.gov.uk/contact-cmoptions/en/new-contact.asp

plclegal, Barrister
Category: Family Law
Satisfied Customers: 4255
Experience: Barrister at law
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