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Stuart J
Stuart J, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 22803
Experience:  Senior Partner at Berkson Wallace
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If i am in debt, can monies held in a joint account be

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If i am in debt, can monies held in a joint account be seized through legal proceedings? The debt in question would be in my name alone.
Assistant: Where are you? It matters because laws vary by location.
Customer: I'm in the UK, England
Assistant: What steps have you taken so far?
Customer: I'm in the process of changing my main current (checking) account into joint names with my spouse if that's what you mean. There are currently no legal proceedings and this is at present mostly hypothetical
Assistant: Anything else you want the Lawyer to know before I connect you?
Customer: The debt is currently in dispute, I have sent them a financial instrument to discharge the debt but continue monthly payments by direct debit for now.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
I should clarify that in terms of changing the account to joint ownership, I've only just requested the forms, so I've not gone too far down the path. Also, the debt is not with the same company or any subsidiary of the bank we hold accounts with.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
The financial instrument was accepted for value and sent to them along with notices of dishonour when they failed to reply.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
I've informed them that by their failure to reply to my notices and to honour the financial instrument accepted for value and received by them (i have proof of delivery for all correspondence) the debt is discharged under the bills of exchange act 1882, however they still aren't playing ball at the moment.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
That's all I feel is relevant for now.

Hello, my name is Jim and I am a qualified lawyer happy to help you today.

It cannot be seized until the creditor successfully sues for the amount owed - they then get a CCJ from the court (county court judgment) and they then enforce it if you do not repay them. One method of enforcement is to apply for a third party debt order which is a court order freezing a bank account. If you have a joint account however - they cannot take out a third party debt order against that account (as your spouse is also named). So the monies would be safe in that joint account.

I hope this helps - if you can please accept the answer and give me a 5 star rating (the top right of your screen & then click “submit”), I can answer follow up Q&A's at no extra charge and I will be credited for helping you today.

Many thanks,

Jim

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Thanks Jim. Quick clarification please, it sounds like you're saying that the money is safe if in a joint account, but what happens if the money is in a joint account and the company secures a CCJ against me? Ie is the money still safe even under those circumstances?
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
No need for phone call �� we're doing fine here.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Lol that was meant to be a smiley face... no emojis.... noted.

Yes, even in those circumstances because the method of enforcement (to claw back monies on any bank accounts) means that the account has to be in your sole name. Even if they obtained a third party debt order on an account in your sole name only, the order is for the money held in your account as of the date of the application, so further fund deposits cannot be obtained.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
They won't get a CCJ anyway because if it came to it I'd go down the route of conditional acceptance upon proof of claim. Likely they would pass on to debt collector who I'd thank for buying the debt and inform I have no contract with them.

If you are joint owner of a house though, they can apply for a charging order on your share only - the way they do this is by applying to the court, the joint tenancy (50/50 ownership) is severed to tenancy in common - then they claim against your distinct share (not your spouse's share though).

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Thanks for that Jim. I appreciate your help confirming the security a joint account offers.

Yes, no problem at all. I hope this helps - if you can please accept the answer and give me a 5 star rating (the top right of your screen & then click “submit”), I can answer follow up Q&A's at no extra charge and I will be credited for helping you today.

Many thanks,

Jim

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Ok, so good info there re the house. The house is mortgaged though, how would that effect things?
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Don't worry this is all gold, I'll rate you alright Jimmy!
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Can you please provide additional insight into how correct or incorrect I am re acceptance for value and bills of exchange act I mentioned earlier? This is to discharge the balance of the credit card, the debt we've been chatting about basically.

The mortgage company have a legal interest in the property but you are the owner (same with your spouse). If you own as joint tenants then it means you both own it as a whole and equally. You can sever the joint tenancy, so you own as tenants in common and you can sell your share to someone or you could remortgage and the house is in your Wife's name. That way the lender cannot apply for a legal charge on the property (if they did that they then have the option to apply to the court to force a sale). It is worth considering as the property is going to be attractive to a lender

You offer to accept the value and then pay the lender - as long as you pay what is agreed (either in full or in installments) then they are unlikely to go to the trouble or expense of issuing court proceedings.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
The claims I've made have not been rebutted, instead the corporation concerned have attempted to put words into my mouth, their only written response, is responding to claims I didn't make.

Thanks, if they are acting like this then a complaint to them should be made followed by a report to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). You would need to exhaust the complaints procedure first before involving the FOS though.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Ok thanks for that re the house. The conversation thread has become a bit disjointed, my fault.

No problem, if you are a member you can post new questions to the site - it won't cost extra as you can ask as many questions as you like in the membership. Generally that is cheaper and more efficient than instructing a law firm.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
One final thing, Jim. I appreciate the info so far... The financial instrument I sent them was a giro, they sent it to me, I accepted for value and used my NINO as an exemption ID, exempt from levy. Should this work? Bearing in mind billd of exchange act 1882, they have neither accepted nor returned it. Where does this leave me? I've understood what you said so far re following their procedures and going to ombudsman, but do I have a valid claim or am I chasing fairy tales here? I know cash is just promissory notes, yet they write to me telling me that they don't accept promissory notes (even though I never called the instrument anything other than an instrument).

Hi there, that is a question outside my remit - I am not familiar with various financial instruments and so forth. I am only able to advise on enforcing debts and court proceedings with being a lawyer. I will therefore opt out to let another expert help you with this going forward. Please do not reply to this as the question will stay with me and there will be a delay.

Thanks

I have been asked to look at this for you.

Cash isn’t a promissory note.

Folding money is a promissory note.

 

Semantics.

 

I read the thread and you have referred throughout to a financial instrument which you now said was a giro. That was going to be my question, what was it?.

 

 

However I’m still not sure what the problem is.

In simple terms, there is indebtedness and you have paid it off using a giro.

 

So what’s the problem or is that the point you are making?

 

You say they don’t accept promissory notes but I don’t why you have used any of that when it was a giro cheque.

 

{C}1 How much is the debt?

{C}2 How much is the giro?

{C}3 Who is the giro payable to?

{C}4 How much is the giro for?

 

{C}5 Why all this talk of promissory notes?

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Hi, well on my £10 note it says I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of £10, signed for too by the governor of the bank of England. so that's where I am coming from in terms of cash being promissory notes, I only bring it up because in the letter Halifax sent in response to my notices, they mention a case Lord Denning vs someone I can't remember, regarding promissory notes. I'd not mentioned this term in any of my notices to them, citing only the bills of exchange act 1882 and the Uniform commercial codes, reserving all rights under UCC 1-308.

The debt is currently just under £3000. At the time I started this process it was a smaller amount, around £1600 which was also the amount I entered into the empty boxes on the giro. It is payable to the Halifax.

I didn't include any cash or cheque with it, only the giro, which unless I've been misinformed is a financial instrument. I accepted it for value and returned it to them to discharge the debt along with a notice of acceptance for value, this was received but they now claim to have no record of it.

I've since sent them notices of dishonour and their only reply was to things I never claimed as I say.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
not intending to be argumentative by the way.

Stuart, if there's any way of contacting Jim, I'd just like to let him know I'm unable to rate him, the stars aren't doing anything when I click. I've emailed support.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
and re your questions, do let me know if I missed anything.

First things first, you are unable to rate Jim because he opted out.

It’s the system.

 

I think we can leave all this promissory note stuff to one side.

 

However I still don’t know what the problem is.

 

You completed a giro and put it in the bank, so I don’t know what the problem is except that there appears to be no record of it.

So what’s the problem in cancelling the old one in giving another one?

 

I also don’t understand what you say when you” accepted it for value”. I know what the phrase means but not in this context.

 

The circumstances seem to be being made extremely complicated here and I just need to know exactly what’s happened in simple terms.

 

I completed a giro cheque on my acct.

I put it in the bank.

They have lost it.

 

etc

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Ok, so I didn't take the giro to the bank, I wrote accepted for value, exempt from levy with my national insurance number as the exemption id. I then sent this back to the halifax from whence it came and instructed them to use this to discharge the debt. They claim to have no record of the giro (financial instrument) or the notice of acceptance for value which was enclosed with it. They have received it. I can fill in another one and repeat this, but what happens if they again claim not to have any record of it?
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Sorry, I'm making the terms as simple as I can, but I'm in somewhat uncharted territory for me. all I'm trying to do is ensure I don't down in the sea of commerce, even though I believe the state currently deals with my estate as if I were dead, lost at sea... I've not yet sent off relevant affidavits to correct this status.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
To clarify, I wrote directly on the giro at a 45° angle in red ink
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
I hope this does make things a little easier to understand. Halifax didn't seem to know what I was trying to do either, but they are not legally trained. Neither am I and so basically I'm just trying to understand if the information I've been given is correct, in that the giro is a financial instrument and that by accepting it for value, it can be used to discharge the debt. If this isn't correct then I'll have to rethink my approach.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
My understanding, rightly or wrongly would be that halifax are now in tacit agreement of the terms I laid out in my notices, declaring that if they don't reply within a reasonable time frame, ie 10 working days, they will have no further claim to add interest or further charges, nor affect my credit file.

Still doesn’t make sense.

You sent it back to the Halifax from whence it came. Doesn’t make sense.

I don’t understand where this giro came from and I don’t what the problem is. I just need the circumstances in plain English please.

You tell me what you are trying to do, then I can advise you but I’m not certain where this giro came from in the first place.

 

Basically, where is the money, the cash, that you are trying to repay with. You have a financial instrument of some description although why it can’t simply be a giro cheque I have no idea, although it may be.

 

I don’t know why you are not just giving them a cheque so I don’t know why you need any different approach.

Unless I can get clear facts I am going to have to opt out and with three experts having opted out, because they can’t understand what’s happening over, it’s unlikely that 4th expert will pick it up.

I don’t why you say you wrote on the giro 45° angle in red ink.. That doesn’t make sense.

Forgive me for saying it, but you seem to be trying to reinvent the banking system and it won’t work.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
I'll leave it there for now
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Ok Stuart, I think you should opt out then, is there anyone on the site who understands the uniform commercial code, which governs all law worldwide?
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Perhaps they can help.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
*at least in countries which have a central bank, ie most.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
By the way... I'm not trying to reinvent anything
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Simply trying to find a remedy
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
The law always provides remedy
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
To a living man
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
I am a living man not a corporation you see.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Therefore statutes and acts only apply to me if I contract with them in some way, by them I mean corporations.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
But they do apply to the halifax, a correlation. Hence my seeking advice on a lawful or legal remedy, I do know the difference, but I'm trying to work out if I go down the route of common law or the laws of equity.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
*corporation, not correlation.

Hi thank you for your message, just to clarify the Uniform Commercial Code does not apply to all countries worldwide in fact it is a type of law applicable in the United States only. It is not applicable in the UK. Therefore, if you wish to pay this debt, yo have a number of options you can pay by bank transfer, make a call and pay by card or send a cheque recorded and signed for. I hope this helps, if you can please accept my answer and rate me 5 stars (in the top right of your screen) then Just Answer will credit me for helping you today.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
So none of the principles in the ucc govern uk law? Please clarify, does the UK court system not operate under statuatory jurisdiction?
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Statutory*
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
England and Wales, sorry not the United kingdom. And i think perhaps its common law and equity I'd need advice on rather than statutory jurisdiction... I'm not perfect by any means.

No, the UCC does not apply in the UK. In terms of whether the UK operates under a statutory system yes it partly does it also partly operates under a common law system. I believe however, this is rather going off on a tangent and does not help you. From what I understand you have a debt you need to pay you either pay it or you don't if you don't your goods can be seized. I hope this helps, if you can please accept my answer and rate me 5 stars (in the top right of your screen) then Just Answer will credit me for helping you today.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Ok, well thanks for that, there I was thinking that there was no real money so no debt could ever be paid. Thanks for clarifying that. Jim was helpful, 5 stars to him. Everyone else appears to be unwilling to assist. However as you are agents of the court system, perhaps I was naive to expect more from this site. Jim seems to be one of the few here who haven't sold their souls. I'll cancel the membership. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
One last try, Not holding my breath.

Indeed, one last try.

We need to know what exactly it was that you presented to the bank to pay the debt and why they will not accept it.

Just ordinary plain English terms with no legal jargon.

There was a debt in the bank and there was money to pay it presumably somewhere else.

Where is that money?

The problem is in getting it transferred from one location to another and that is done by way of an instrument (cheque ) or a transfer.

At present, we don’t know what the problem is.

You will appreciate of course that this question is completely different than the one that you asked in the first place about seizing goods which by colleague assisted you with and which you were pleased with.

Customer: replied 2 day ago.
The questions are related though Stuart, in that it's to do with the same debt. The debt is credit card debt and so all my dealings have been with the card provider, halifax. No bank was involved.

I sent halifax their own giro back to them, in order to discharge the debt, along with a notice of acceptance for value. I don't know how to say notice of acceptance for value without using jargon, not being facetious.

As for why they won't accept it, as far as I'm concerned, they've accepted it by not rebutting the claims, however this was one aapect I was hoping to clarify if I was correct or not. It would seem, perhaps not. My card balance hasn't been updated, and while they were careful not to specifically dent receiving the notice and the giro, they say they have no record of it.
To me that would mean that they are in dishonour because under the bills of exchange act, I'd presented a financial instrument to them to discharge the debt but it was basically ignored.
I'm basing this on Section 43, Subsection 1 (a) of the English Bills of Exchange Act 1882, which is still in full force and effect in the United Kingdom, which clearly states that a bill of exchange is discharged when it:

“...is duly presented for acceptance, and such an acceptance as is prescribed by this Act is refused or cannot be obtained”.
Here is a link to a forum where people are discussing exactly the sort of thing I am attempting to achieve.

It may explain my query better than I could. http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/sutra345844.php
Customer: replied 2 day ago.
Sorry there's a typo again, "And while they were careful not to specifically" *admit

 

Thank you. I want to try to help you with this. I really do. Don’t let’s get into the bills of exchange act and all the rest of it because there is really no need this stage. Forget acceptance value, forget Levy, forget everything else.

 

I need to know what the instrument was that you presented which they will not accept.

For the purposes of what we’re talking about, credit card company bank, building society Halifax, whoever, it’s a bank. The legal identity is not relevant.

You say that you sent their own giro back to them. We are getting there.

What account was that drawn on?

Where is the money which the giro relates to?

I need to know the circumstances surrounding this giro please.

I still haven’t got a clue what the problem is.

I need to know-how this giro came into your hands, what the money is in the giro, and how it’s their own giro when giro is nothing to do with Halifax.

 

1 Money is owed to an account account with Halifax. You accept that.

2 Question: where is the money that you are going to use to pay Halifax?

3 How are you going to get that money out of the account and send it to Halifax?

 

 

There is indebtedness in the Halifax account

presumably there is credit in another account.

The only problem is getting it from the other account to Halifax account and that’s why I can’t see what the problem is.

I just need only plain simple clear English facts.

No bills of exchange act, no Levy, no jargon just simple terms please.

Customer: replied 1 day ago.
Hi again Stuart. Here's a photo of another giro they sent me, it's identical to the one I sent them back, minus my writing accepted for value etc.
So that's how it came to my hands sir.

With regards to my acceptance that monies are owed, that acceptance would be on the condition that proof of claim and proof of contact are provided.

The money to pay would come from the trust created under my legal fiction name, MR TIMOTHY NEEDHAM, this is my understanding anyhow.

As for how I would get the money to the halifax, it's my understanding that the corporation concerned would be able to cash the giro against my NI number with hm revenue and customs.

I'm not sure if this will explain further or add further confusion, but a lot of this line of thought comes from the CQV Act 1666, which is explained very well here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Cestui-Que-Vie-Act-1666

I will be sending affidavits to the Home Secretary in due course to correct my standing as a living natural man.
Customer: replied 1 day ago.
*as opposed to a person
Customer: replied 24 hours ago.
You can see this is a broad subject, which affects everything from fines, to bills. But you see I'm not really interested in what my person is said to owe, because I am not my person, I have no name, names are for corp-orations, (dead speaking). I have a calling, timothy and I'm of house needham, but I am not the legal person to which my birth certificate pertains, because that person is a dead entity, a corporation.

Thanks for your time. At this point if I'm still not understood, we shall have to say good day. If however I've succeeded in more thoroughly explaining my position then I thankyou again for your perseverance and welcome further advice.

Without malice or mischief.

What you have is paying in slip.

You attach the cheque or the money to it and paid into the account. It’s not an instrument it’s merely an attachment. If you fill it in and send it to the Halifax, they will just send it back unless you attach a cheque or you are paying in to branch with cash

As I said earlier, there is a debt on account.

You are trying to pay the account debt.

There must be money somewhere else. You haven’t told me where that money is.

Stuart J, Solicitor
Category: Law
Satisfied Customers: 22803
Experience: Senior Partner at Berkson Wallace
Stuart J and 2 other Law Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 21 hours ago.
I will leave it there Stuart, thank you for your time and good day sir.

No problem at all. If anything crops up, please just post up.