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Steve
Steve, vehicle technician
Category: Peugeot
Satisfied Customers: 1088
Experience:  garage owner for thirty years
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I'm doing a timing belt change on a 2L HDI DW10FC engine and

Customer Question

I'm doing a timing belt change on a 2L HDI DW10FC engine and after putting the new belt on the car won't start, i downloaded the installation instructions from service box and it says to make sure the crank sprocket rotates freely on the keyways but mines does not rotate freely, the woodruff key is uptight to the right of the keyway but not damaged and i can't centre it because of no rotation. This engine has cam alignment hole but nothing for the crank so how would i know if the crank is in the correct position?
Submitted: 1 year ago.
Category: Peugeot
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It's a 2017 Traveller
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi thank you for your question, my name is ***** ***** I am a fully qualified technician with over thirty years in the trade, I will try and help you.

Their is a crankshaft locking pin on the DW10FC engine and this is located in the flywheel just under the starter motor, it is difficult to see and access, but the tool needed to lock the flywheel is part number 0188X, you can do this using a length of 8mm rod. his is placed in the small hole near the engine block and is then located in the flywheel.

The crank sprocket should be keyed to the crankshaft and you should also have a reluctor ring which is clamped in place, ensure that this is in position correctly and not damaged.

I hope this helps but do please feel free to ask me any further questions.

If this answers your question please click accept and rate me, even after doing this I will be able to answer any further questions.

Many Thanks

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi, the problem i'm having is that the crank sprocket is not rotating on the keyway like it said in the instructions, i can move the crank but the sprocket moves with the crank, the woodruff key is not centered. Will this affect the timing?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I used the flywheel locking tool, the hole in the flywheel is not actually a hole designed specifically for a 8 mm tool , it's a lug nut hole in the flywheel which has a little bit of play in it, maybe 1 or 2 mm.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

If the keyway is not correctly rotated on the sprocket, then yes it will affect the timing. Can you see why the crankshaft is not rotating, also did you remove the starter to fit the timing tool? When fitted this should not give any movement, they are quite difficult to locate and it has been known for the tool to not be correctly located.

I have attached an image of the tool and fitting, is this the same as your.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok i've been putting the tool in the upper hole rather than bottom hole but i imagined that this would not affect the timing and was only used to unlock the crank pulley bolt, correct me if i'm wrong please. What could be the possible reasons for the crank sprocket not rotating freely? if i try to rotate by hand then the whole crank moves, i have only the driver side wheel off the ground, do i need to raise both wheels? does the car need to be in neutral or in gear? it's an automatic gearbox AM6.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The car has been in 'P' on the auto box.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

No only the one wheel needs to be off the ground and the engine rotation should not be effected by the vehicle being in park.

Have you tried to recheck the timing using the lower hole. If the timing is correct the crank sprocket not rotating although not correct should not stop the engine from starting. If the timing is out there is a slight danger that the valves have made contact. Did you slowly rotate the engine fitting the belt before attempting to start. Sorry if this sounds a daft question, but I just need to check all the possibilities.

There is a spring which sits behind the crank sprocket, this may have broken and jammed, but although it will affect running, there should not be enough movement to prevent the engine from starting.

You may need to use a puller to remove the sprocket and investigate why it is not moving.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I did turn the engine sometimes 2 full rotations and sometimes 4 full rotations ending at TDC checking via the cam tool. After starting the first time there is a danger the tensioner was not tensioned enough because the engine sounded horrible like a bag of nuts rattling but when i investigated the cam and crank positions they both still lined up at the correct spots. I will go and try the other flywheel hole alignment and see if that makes a difference but before i do can you tell me the proper method for tensioning, i understand it as having the slacker side of the belt on the tensioner side (not that there is any slack) and the right side of the belt as the tighter side.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

I have attached an image of the tensioner, the tensioner should be turned anticlockwise until the pointer lines up with the base I have added arrows. Then the engine should be rotated four times again and the tension rechecked.

I hope this helps

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok thanks, ***** ***** let you know in a few hours if i'm stuck again. Thanks again
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

OK, I will watch out for any replies.

Many thanks

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well I did everything as instructed by peugeot online service box and yourself and the car is just not starting, it keeps ticking over like it's going to start but never actually starts. Then gearbox error flashes then goes away, there is nothing wrong with the gearbox so whatever connection there is between the engine block and gearbox is causing the error. I lined the flywheel up as instructed however I did have to move the flywheel I good few teeth to get the holes to line up. Where it was before it gave me a rough start like its catching ignition but failing, now since moving the flywheel nothing apart from the initial sound going on and on. Is there only one hole in the flywheel? I tried moving the crankshaft one tooth forward and then backwards and it made no difference. I will remove the starter motor tomorrow and look to see if there is another hole but this hole lined up perfect with the hole in the housing so unless there is another hole that lines up with the housing I can't see what it could be. I checked the tensioner each time and it did not move.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

The instruction I have indicate that the starter must be removed to access the timing pin hole. There should be only one hole in the flywheel, but often the timing pin can appear to be located, it needs to go in fully and lock the engine. The fact the gearbox error is flashing may indicate that the crank sensor is faulty, but this is tied up with the reluctor ring at the front of the engine.

As long as you have turned the engine by hand before trying to start it you should not have done any damage. As it was running beforehand it can only be a timing problem.

Let me know how you get on when the starter is out, I am here in the morning.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi again, still no luck. Since we last talked i must of removed and replaced the the belt at least 10 times. What I've noticed so far, when i line the timing marks up on the flywheel and cam pulley and tension the belt, the timing pins become difficult to remove from both holes so i have to jiggle the crank a bit to get them out. The engine is trying to start but fails each time for e.g once i press the start button it will start the ignition sounds and maybe 7 or 8 seconds later try to start with a little vibration for a second then fails and goes back to the ignition sounds. So to sum up the pins are perfect, the tension is perfect, even the crank sprocket and woodruff key are nearly perfect maybe 1 mm more of a gap on one side of the key than the other side. No sensors or plugs were removed so that's all perfect. I'm lost, would the car start if i bent a valve?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

from your description it sounds as though you have got the timing right, the pins are tight as you describe when the belt is tensioned.

If the valves have bent then it would be unlikely to start, and when turning over would probably pop back through the cylinders.

I am trying to think of anything else that would create the symptoms you have. Has anything else been touched or disconnected during the job?

Have you had the battery disconnected at all during the work?

If so Autodata advises:

Switch ignition ON.
Access fault memories and erase trouble codes.
Wait 2 minutes after reconnecting battery before starting engine.
Start engine.
Access fault memories and erase trouble codes.

It also gives a procedure to recode door locks and alarm, if you have disconnected the battery I will let you have the procedure. This may be why the engine isnt starting.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I did disconnect the battery but the doors lock and tge alarm works. As for turning the engine by from memory each revolution was giving me a difficult turn followed by an ease in compression twice. If the valves were bent would that still be the case? I will try the recoding if you think it might help but the dash has stopped flashing errors apart from when it refuses to start it shows an orange spanner followed by no message. Once or twice it did flash gearbox error but then went away and didn't show up at other times. I'm really paranoid about having bent the valves, apart from doing a compression test or opening the head up would there be any other signs for e.g turning the engine by hand and hearing sounds or no compression.?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

The only way to check for bent valves would be to do a compression test, it would be difficult to detect just from turning by hand.

if you have disconnected the battery the following information is also given:Models with keyless entry/start system
Manually unlock vehicle using key in driver's door.
Press remote control lock or unlock button once.
Hold remote control against recess on left hand side of steering column.
Press start/stop button to switch ignition ON.
Press start/stop button to switch ignition OFF.
Models without keyless entry/start system
Fully open driver's window.
Manually lock vehicle using key in driver's door.
Press remote control lock or unlock button once.
Switch ignition ON with key to be synchronised.
Switch ignition OFF.

This may be activating the immobiliser, I am sure from the details you have given that the timing is correct now, as you turned the engine before attempting to start originally its unlikely but not impossible that

valves have bent bent. It may be best to carry out a compression test to eliminate this possibility.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi, been too busy to try compression test yet, i have a question, I'm wondering what would happen if the flywheel was 360 deg off for e.g if i turned the flywheel all the way around whilst looking for the timing hole would that put the timing out?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

No it shouldn't because the pump timing is electronic but it is a possibility and it may be worth a try, I must admit its not something I had considered that the crankshaft could have been rotated a full turn.

If you do turn it another full turn do be careful as if the valves will touch if at the TDC position.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
if i understand you correctly, if the cam is at TDC and i turn the crank, the pistons will hit the valves? and if turning by hand it will cause damage or just wont turn? I'ts obviously not possible to turn with force by hand.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I also noticed other issues through my 20 odd efforts getting the timing right, the tensioner sometimes moved and other times didn't, the tensioner is torqued down to the specified amount so what could cause the tensioner to move like that? when i tension everything up the belt between the water pump and crank gear is tight, crank gear to pulley is the slackest part, water pump to tensioner is the tightest part.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

It will hit the valves and do damage, it may not turn, when it comes up to the valves but can still do damage.

Its an automatic tensioner so it will move slightly as the tension on the belt changes, as the valves open and close it gives a different resistance to the turning force and as this changes the tension on the belt will alter, this can move the tensioner slightly, that is why the tensioner needs to be checked after turning the engine over 2 turns.

I hope this makes sense but do ask me any further questions.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
when i turn the engine by hand 4 times the tensioner is spot on but when i try to start the car the tensioner has moved, this movement is normal or indicates a problem with the tension?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
When i say the tensioner has moved i mean sometimes it's gone past the little notch used for tensioning other times it's before the notch and maybe sometimes within the notch area but moved.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi yes that is normal it won't stay in one position as it is an automatic tensioner, that acceptable.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thanks Stephen you've been a great help answering me so far, one more question regarding the crank gear, the woodruff key is not centred and the crank gear does not spin freely, will this stop the vehicle from starting in any way and does indicate wrong belt tension? the crank gear does move when i put the belt on and tension it, the woodruff key does get closer to the centre of the gap but not quite centre.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

The crankshaft pulley should be free and centralise, I think this may be the whole root of the problem, the pulley should centralise using tool No.0188-AH. which is only really a spring to keep it in place.

Do you think the crankshaft or pulley could have got burred at all?

If this is not centred it wont affect belt tension but it will affect starting.

I would check the reason for the pulley not being free on the crankshaft,

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It's not burred just stuck, can't spin freely but moves a little into place with the belt tension, maybe 1mm of centre. I will try and send you a picture of it if I can.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok, that will be good.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
First picture
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm having trouble sending pictures from my phone, it doesn't have the little attachment pin so don't even know how I did the first one. The picture also just rotated to the side by itself so you have a strange view.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
From the left
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
From the right
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Belt on
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Belt on from left
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

The pictures came through ok and are good. That doesn't look far enough out to cause any problems, it should really move but the position that is in the engine should start ok.

The only concern is that the reluctor ring behind may have moved, it shouldn't do but have you taken the sensor off and just made sure that the reluctor has not spun. this would stop the engine starting.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Belt on fro
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I haven't done that because I don't have a press to press the gear back on, however I did a diagnostics and it said cam and crank sync YES.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Diagnostics fault report
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I guess I just have to do the compression check. Is it even possible with a cold engine. I've never done one before so its daunting just thinking about it. I have a compressor with max 8 bar pressure which I believe is about 100 psi.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

ok thats good, well looking at the pictures, although the gear should move and centralise its not far enough from its optimum position to cause problems and with the diagnostics confirming that the sensors are correct, I can only think that a problem did occur when the engine was originally timed up using the wrong hole.

You will need to carry out a compression test to confirm that no valve damage has occurred. That all that I can think of that may be the problem.

Steve.

P.S.

Your reply just came though as I was writing this.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
it's possible to do a compression check on a cold diesel engine and get correct results?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Yes because your not looking for perfection but just to confirm that you have all cylinders producing a good compression. you should see all reading within 5% of each other.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok I will try that next followed by a leak down test if that's even possible on a diesel I don't know.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

OK let me know how it goes, he compression test should be good enough to show up any faults but the leak down test will show up a valve with more certainty.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Hi Stephen, just completed compression test. The results are from left to right after the second compression test. 1. 478, 2. 478, 3. 488 and 4. 462. Let me know what you think please.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Just to let you know I didn't open the air inlet as some suggested and removed all 4 glow plugs and disconnected the injectors.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Leak down test kit
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Oops sorry last message was not meant for you.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Thats ok.That number 4 cylinder is slightly low, but not enough to prevent the engine from starting, I don't think the compressions are the problem.

This comes back to the valve timing or the position of the crank sensor / reluctor ring.

One of those has to be out.

Just out of interest how many miles has the vehicle done and was it running perfectly before the belt change.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
92,000 miles and yes was running perfect however the spanner lught came on but still drove perfect, did diagnosis and had fault 'aux belt' so changed that and noticed it had already been changed so was an old message, did scan again and a nox sensor intermittent error popped up. The car did initially start after first time changing the belt even though it was not perfect timing, 2nd time starting was when the troubles started was major lack of power and horrible engine rattling sounds so switched off and re done the belt and it has never started again since then.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I take it there is no point doing a leak down test now?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

I don't think a leak down test will prove much.

Just to clarify you had the engine running but it was not quite right, firstly how did the timing differ from this to the second time you fitted the belt when it started rattling? and how much did you alter the belt for the third time?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well first time it was put together it ran fine so I let it idle for 5 - 10 min to get the air out the coolant so I then began to rev the car eventually up to 4000 revs and still no problem. 5 min later I started it again and it started horribly and when I revved the car it made sounds like a bag of metal bits shaking and when I pressed the pedal nothing happened until the very bottom of the pedal a tiny bit of power came so I shut it down and re done the belt and noticed the tensioner was not where it was meant to be. After re doing the belt and trying to start it several times it just did not start. That's when I got in touch with yourself. After following your instructions wrongly with the flywheel hole it didn't start but did make a bang of some sort so I had a look and the crank bolt had come loose so re done and luck. Then re done with correct flywheel hole, cleared all fault codes but still no start. I must of refitted the belt at least 10 times without starting the car because the tensioner was moving until you cleared that up for me. So the last time I tried starting the car there were no strange sounds apart from what I could only interpret as a misfire, basically the car was trying to start and maybe 10 cranks into trying to start I would have a judder in the engine and a short rumbling sound followed by normal cranking sounds. It did that each time I tried to start so I did diagnosis and I showed you the report and I am where I am right now baffled after good compression readings.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Have you got any fault codes coming up when cranking?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm putting the car back together just now and will tell you after.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

ok, let me know.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well I cleared all faults and it still wouldn't start but this time no fault codes on dash or PC. I have a video recording of the sound in mp4 format but it's not uploading, is it possible to upload this or not? Anyway it's cranking really fast and starts to slow down after 5 seconds or so. That's where I'm at, at the moment.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

I have been thinking over the problem after you last message when you told me it did run initially when you replaced the cam belt and only after turning off again did it have problems. I do think you have made a mistake by keep taking the belt off as if it was running initially unless the belt was so slack that it jumped it was unlikely to be a problem with the belt timing. From the picture I can see you used paint marks to initially mark the position of the crank, but I see two different marks.

With this in mind the picture you sent me shows the belt in place and the crank bolt fitted with no reluctor ring, If this has been damaged or if the crank bolt was not properly tightened up when you initially done the job and the reluctor ring has spun slightly this will give you the problems you have. I have attached a picture of the reluctor just to confirm the part I am talking about, which i presume you have refitted when attempting to start up.

I also confirmed with a colleague that the engine would run if one tooth out.

The reason the engine starts to slow may be due to a failing battery which has been extensively used lately

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I can confirm that the reluctor ring along with crank pulley and bolt was always connected during start up however there is the smallest of little nicks in the cut out in the reluctor ring, just where the woodruff key would sit between, hardly noticeable. The battery is on charge day and night and has plenty of juice. Do you think there could still be damage inside the engine even with good compression or would you be satisfied with the compression test results? So what do you think my next steps should be, redo the belt? Re tension the belt? Change the reluctor ring? I have been tightening the crank bolt to 120nm.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Sounds like you have been doing things right, I would have thought with those compressions the engine should start ok.

Can you let me have a picture of the reluctor ring, just so I can see it?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I will tomorrow as I plan to take it apart again tomorrow. I had the crank bolt tightened without reluctor ring ever so slightly just so I could turn the crank for the flywheel pin i was always careful not to over tighten.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok, I am not sure if your aware but the same engine is also used in the Ford Kuga, reading the Ford manual on the engine they repeat a warning about damage occurring to the reluctor ring.

This is why I am concerned that this may be the problem.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
But damage where? I would of thought the damage where the reluctor ring passes the crank sensor I.e the outer perimeter would be of concern rather than the cut out are. I am aware Ford uses this engine but wasn't sure in which models. I really hope it's as simple as acreluctor ring but I seriously doubt it.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Yes but it's magnetic so you wouldn't see physical damage, I think that is why the make a point of it in there literature.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok it's probably best just to change it then I guess.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

I have gone over the situation quite a few times and can't think of any other reason, if you have the timing correct that would prevent the engine from starting.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I personally was pointing towards the crank gear not turning by hand as it states in the instructions but I don't know how important that really is.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

I think the instructions say not to turn it against the direction of rotation, I presume you have not done that.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I couldn't turn it any way.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm talking about the crank sprocket.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Yes sorry misread that, from the picture the sprocket is very close to centre, and if that was the problem I don't believe it would have started and run when you first changed the belt, but I will admit I am concerned as to why it won't turn

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
But it turns by the tension in the belt, so I can't really use the tool to centre the sprocket because I can't move the sprocket so the reluctor ring will always be off from it's correct position. But like I said I really don't know if this is of great importance or not because it's only a mm or so and I'm not sure if this would affect starting of the engine. One other question, would coolant level affect starting, not that I'm getting any warnings but I do have it in the back of my mind that I was never able to purge all the air in the coolant system because the engine has not ran more than 5 min since initial timing belt change.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.
Hi
No cooling level will not effect starting at all, you could start engine with an empty cooling system.
The big question is what happened between the engine starting and running ok, and then it not starting.
That will be the solution to the problem.
Steve
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well the engine ran after the first timing belt change when I used a lug nut instead of flywheel hole so timing was way off, I'm just curious as this thought has crossed my mind in the past, if I had accidentally turned the crank 1 whole 360 deg turn, would it cause issues like this or would it cause damage for sure?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

You say timing was way off when you first done the job using a lug nut, but it can't have been if it run so well

I saw from the picture you sent that you marked the crank sprocket with paint, did you mark the camshaft with paint as well or just used the locking bar?

360 degree turn provided you did not hit the valves when the engine turned the full turn would still bring the engine back to the correct position.

You would have felt the pistons hit the valves when turning by hand.

Just to be clear I am also presuming that you lined the timing marks up and made our paint marks whilst the old belt was still on.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
No unfortunately no paint Mark's other than on the crank as the cam has a hole and it's impossible for that to move with pin in it. The reason there is several different Mark's on the crank sprocket is because I did try 1 tooth forward and 1 tooth back on the crank and I was marking it as I go. I only tried the tooth adjustment on the crank because I couldn't get the crank sprocket to move to centre it.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok, so when you now use the 8mm bar in the crankshaft and with the camshaft locked using the bar, where does the paint mark you first made sit, does this line up with either of those on the crank sprocket?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well i didn't mark the crank the first time, i just changed the belt as is, but i did peg the wrong flywheel lug nut and i remember exactly where that was. The only thing that put me off that was although it did start it also failed to start in a good running condition 5 mins later and also i assumed the belt become slack due to the high mileage. The woodruff key was facing pretty much 1 o'clock as apposed to 11 o'clock when timed according to the flywheel hole.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Right unfortunately we can't turn back the clock and mark the crank, but if you can remember exactly where that was, then I would try fitting the belt there.

The belt will not stretch much at all, the belts are internally strengthened and the danger is that they will break with age but they do not stretch.

Just to clarify it did start ok the first time, but 5 minutes later was a problem. There is an issue with the crank pulley not moving, but at this stage and if you can be sure you know exactly where the belt was I would put it back in that position. Then turn the engine slowly by hand to ensure that nothing will touch and try it.

As long as the valves do not touch when the engine is turned over you have nothing to loose. You now know how the tensioner should be fitted and this will rule another problem out.

I am concerned that somehow the flywheel timing pin is not locating correctly and as you have taken the belt off and replaced it so many times now, without success, I think going back to the first position would be good.

If it does start this may discount the reluctor problem, but if it doesn't now start in the original position then it could still be a damaged reluctor.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
What I will do is take a picture of the crank gear position and show you this when it's timed to the position it was in in the first place before I try starting it, because right now it doesn't sound like it's going to start at all but previously it just sounded horrible and wouldn't start, so the key might be in between the two positions I hope.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok, let me have the picture and I will look.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Is it necessary to add the aux belt to test it?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

No the Aux belt doesn't need to be fitted to start it up to test.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok I will probably be about an hour.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok, I may be offline for a while, but will be back later in the afternoon.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The more I think about it I remember seeing green paint lines on the flywheel just before the flywheel timing holes match up, maybe they mean something so I will look out for that to.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.
That could be good
Steve
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I can't send the picture of the reluctor ring because of 5mb max upload size. This is a picture of the green paint which points to no corresponding points or marks.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Another view
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
To the left of the green line is the lug nut and hole I initially used, the correct timing hole in this position is about 6 flywheel teeth past the correct timing hole. This green line, lines up with the edge of the housing and that's all. Does this make any sense to you, I wanted some feedback before trying to put everything back together and starting it.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

So was the green line there or did you put it on, and is the green line in the position it was when you first put it together and it ran?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I didn't put it there, I didn't pay attention to where it was I just remembered seeing it on the flywheel. But what you see is where the flywheel roughly was when the car last started. So the difference between here and the actual timing hole is about 6 flywheel teeth.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
if I was to move the flywheel 3 teeth making the timing holes closer, what's the chances of me causing damage?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It didn't cause any damage as far as I'm aware when I moved it the full 6 teeth but it sounded further away from actually starting. Also that green line, why would a mechanic do that, there seems to lots of green lines all over mechanical parts but they all match up to another part, the line on the flywheel only points to the starter motor which has a little green dot on it but not where the two would meet and not visible. But the 2 green lines on the flywheel are confusing.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Someone must have done the belt before, and where that green line is it lines up with the edge of the block.

I would try it with the flywheel in that position, with the proviso that as mentioned you turn it by hand a couple of turns before trying to start it, as long as it turns smoothly with no contact then you will do no damage.

I would not try going half way (3 teeth) because that is total guesswork.

If you get it back to a state where it was running.

There is still the possibility that you are not using the correct timing hole.

Some mechanics have there own strange ways of marking..

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Three teeth on the flywheel hardly turns half a tooth on the crank sprocket. But I will try the green line as a guide.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok let me know,

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Will do.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

ok

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok green line Mark's didn't work as I think they line up the other flywheel stop tool that bolts in just above the starter motor. This afternoon I went back to manufacture specifications and after trying to start I noticed the flywheel hole does not line up. At the time of putting the belt on and both timing pins in and after mentioning the belt the pins were extremely difficult to remove, I had to use pliers to twist them out. But now that the engine has turned and not started what should I do in regards ***** ***** holes not lining up?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Tensioning not mentioning*
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi Just a quick question, is your Peugeot a manual or automatic?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Auto
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok

The automatic has different timing holes.

Picture attached.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
That's what I've been using
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Then if the can and crank have been lined up, then the only thing left is the reluctor, you were going to send me a picture, have you got that?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Having trouble as its larger than 5mb and wont allow me to upload. Just clear something up for me please, if I time it to the incorrect timing but turn the engine 4 times and if the engine turns does that mean if i start the engine then there is no chance of damage?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

If the timing is a couple of teeth out, then it is unlikely that damage will occur, but if you have turned the engine over by hand ensuring that there is no contact then you can be assured that there will be no damage.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Would I be able to turn the engine even if there is contact?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

No if there was contact then the engine would stop, unless you forced it past the point of contact then you would do damage.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Also the difference in the last starting position and the correct position is about 6 flywheel teeth which is about 1 tooth if that on crank sprocket, I moved it there while the cam was left, so would that suggest it would be ok to try from there?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
While the cam was locked *
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

Yes one tooth on the crankshaft pulley end should be safe, but you must of course turn the engine by hand to confirm.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
There was no signs of contact, I'm just worried now about damaging valves, I may of been just lucky so far.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Providing you turn the engine slowly by hand to ensure there is no contact you will be safe.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok will try that now.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Let me know.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well tried that and it didn't start, i feel the issue is when i time it up correctly and turn the engine 4 times the timing holes don't match up, i assume i shouldn't have to turn the crank to make the holes match up once the belt is on?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Once the belt is on and correctly timed and tensioned, then after turning the engine over the holes should line up, they may be a very tiny bit out, but they should be very close.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
what would it mean then if the difference is greater than the holes width maybe by 2.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

If the distance is changing that much something must be loose, it is either the crank pulley moving on the crankshaft or the flywheel / drive plate loose on the crankshaft.

There is no other reason, if the belt is properly tensioned up. Just a quick thought you are turning the tensioner anti clockwise to tension it?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
first clockwise to the axis then anti clockwise well past the point and then i bring it back to the point and tighten it.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
A mechanic friend of mines did say to make sure 1 side of the belt is tight and the other not so tight, is there a procedure for putting this belt on for e.g crank to cam then to water pump?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Yes the procedure is that the belt should be fitted to the camshaft sprocket and then fed on clockwise, so it is tight between the camshaft and crankshaft and any slack is then taken up between the crankshaft and camshaft by the tensioner, which should only be turned anti-clockwise to tension it. The water pump is free moving and so will just turn as required to accommodate tensioning.

The belt should be evenly tight, one side should not be slacker.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok i think i will give that a go next time.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
But, which part of the belt would be the last part you put on?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Make sure that once the teeth are located on the cam sprocket that they stay in place, you can lightly clamp the belt, I have attached a picture.

So the belt goes on the camshaft sprocket, is fed past the guide pulley and then tightly onto the crank pulley, past the water pump and round the tensioner.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Will give it a try, at this point anything is worth a try.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Let me know, i still have concerns about the reluctor, but now I am more concerned about why the timing goes out after turning the engine over, that shouldn't happen. It may be that you are not putting the belt on tightly enough between the camshaft and the crankshaft pulley down the front.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Didn't work, i'll just get a reluctor ring and take it from there.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Ok

Did the timing stay correct or does it still alter when turning the engine over two turns?

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Well it changed a little, but by the turn of the crank a tiny bit the pin goes in easy enough.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

that sounds good then, it will normally need a tiny bit of adjustment to get the pin in.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
It looks like a lot when looking at the flywheel about the same width as the pin itself but not a lot I guess.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
If it was the reluctor ring wouldn't an error code come up for that?
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

A code would not necessarily come up.

The timing should not alter by the width of the pin, is the belt tight, enough?

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
it has always been tight enough. Tensioner spot on, timing pins spot on.
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Compression spot on, all that is left is sensors but the sensors read cam/crank sync YES. Baffled me.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

But if the timing is changing by the width of the pin after rotating the engine the timing cannot be spot on or the belt is not tight enough.

Or the third option there is movement in the pulley.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
The width of the pin on the flywheel is a lot?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
What if I was to tension it more just to see what happens?
Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Can't get the belt super tight between cam and crank the front side of the belt, can only go as tight as how many teeth will fit in the gap, I'm talking about before tensioning it.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

It is when setting the timing, it should be set and stay in that position. The tension on the belt should be controlled by the automatic tensioner, this should be set as I described turning it anticlockwise till the marks align, this pointer will move slightly as the engine turns but should end up in the same position after rotating the engine.

The belt on the front side needs to be tight, if you can't get it to fit tight then you should unlock the crank and turn it back slightly, then fit the belt so that when you turn the crank into position the belt will be tight.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Ok will try the unlocking crank tomorrow. I think I did that the first time I fitted the belt and the car started but was worried incase I messed something up.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

OK, it is important to get that first run of the belt between the cam and crank tight.

Let me know how it goes.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Thanks will do.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

I am about tomorrow so should be able to get straight back to you.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
Unfortunately no luck, did not start and belt was as tight as could be, I feel maybe too tight. The issue I'm having installing the belt without the crank being locked and trying to put the belt on is that the woodruff key has now butted up to the right of the key way and slightly dented. The sprocket no longer lines up with the ribs of the belt so it's an absolute nightmare to get the belt on in any position, right or wrong. It's impossible to time it perfectly without the sprocket freely spinning on the key ways, I imagine that's would help with taking up the slack when crank is locked because it would spin that little bit, just enough to get the belt on and spin back around and centre itself on the key way. Now the key is butted up to the right of the sprocket and not moving but before it was very close to centre so now I'm lost.
Expert:  Steve replied 1 year ago.

Hi

If the sprocket is butting up to the right of the key way, then it must be moving. After 18 days I feel i have reached the end of any advice I can give you on this and perhaps you may need someone who can physically check the vehicle.

I will put the question back in case any other expert has a better idea.

Steve

Customer: replied 1 year ago.
I'm sorry to hear that, your advice has been brilliant and I understand how you feel.