I'm doing a timing belt change on a 2L HDI DW10FC engine and

Hi thank you for your question, my name is ***** ***** I am a fully qualified technician with over thirty years in the trade, I will try and help you.

Their is a crankshaft locking pin on the DW10FC engine and this is located in the flywheel just under the starter motor, it is difficult to see and access, but the tool needed to lock the flywheel is part number 0188X, you can do this using a length of 8mm rod. his is placed in the small hole near the engine block and is then located in the flywheel.

The crank sprocket should be keyed to the crankshaft and you should also have a reluctor ring which is clamped in place, ensure that this is in position correctly and not damaged.

I hope this helps but do please feel free to ask me any further questions.

If this answers your question please click accept and rate me, even after doing this I will be able to answer any further questions.

Many Thanks

Steve

If the keyway is not correctly rotated on the sprocket, then yes it will affect the timing. Can you see why the crankshaft is not rotating, also did you remove the starter to fit the timing tool? When fitted this should not give any movement, they are quite difficult to locate and it has been known for the tool to not be correctly located.

I have attached an image of the tool and fitting, is this the same as your.

Steve

Hi

No only the one wheel needs to be off the ground and the engine rotation should not be effected by the vehicle being in park.

Have you tried to recheck the timing using the lower hole. If the timing is correct the crank sprocket not rotating although not correct should not stop the engine from starting. If the timing is out there is a slight danger that the valves have made contact. Did you slowly rotate the engine fitting the belt before attempting to start. Sorry if this sounds a daft question, but I just need to check all the possibilities.

There is a spring which sits behind the crank sprocket, this may have broken and jammed, but although it will affect running, there should not be enough movement to prevent the engine from starting.

You may need to use a puller to remove the sprocket and investigate why it is not moving.

Steve

Hi

I have attached an image of the tensioner, the tensioner should be turned anticlockwise until the pointer lines up with the base I have added arrows. Then the engine should be rotated four times again and the tension rechecked.

I hope this helps

Steve

OK, I will watch out for any replies.

Many thanks

Steve

Hi

The instruction I have indicate that the starter must be removed to access the timing pin hole. There should be only one hole in the flywheel, but often the timing pin can appear to be located, it needs to go in fully and lock the engine. The fact the gearbox error is flashing may indicate that the crank sensor is faulty, but this is tied up with the reluctor ring at the front of the engine.

As long as you have turned the engine by hand before trying to start it you should not have done any damage. As it was running beforehand it can only be a timing problem.

Let me know how you get on when the starter is out, I am here in the morning.

Steve

Hi

from your description it sounds as though you have got the timing right, the pins are tight as you describe when the belt is tensioned.

If the valves have bent then it would be unlikely to start, and when turning over would probably pop back through the cylinders.

I am trying to think of anything else that would create the symptoms you have. Has anything else been touched or disconnected during the job?

Have you had the battery disconnected at all during the work?

If so Autodata advises:

Switch ignition ON.
Access fault memories and erase trouble codes.
Wait 2 minutes after reconnecting battery before starting engine.
Start engine.
Access fault memories and erase trouble codes.

It also gives a procedure to recode door locks and alarm, if you have disconnected the battery I will let you have the procedure. This may be why the engine isnt starting.

Steve

Hi

The only way to check for bent valves would be to do a compression test, it would be difficult to detect just from turning by hand.

if you have disconnected the battery the following information is also given:Models with keyless entry/start system
Manually unlock vehicle using key in driver's door.
Press remote control lock or unlock button once.
Hold remote control against recess on left hand side of steering column.
Press start/stop button to switch ignition ON.
Press start/stop button to switch ignition OFF.
Models without keyless entry/start system
Fully open driver's window.
Manually lock vehicle using key in driver's door.
Press remote control lock or unlock button once.
Switch ignition ON with key to be synchronised.
Switch ignition OFF.

This may be activating the immobiliser, I am sure from the details you have given that the timing is correct now, as you turned the engine before attempting to start originally its unlikely but not impossible that

valves have bent bent. It may be best to carry out a compression test to eliminate this possibility.

Steve

Hi

No it shouldn't because the pump timing is electronic but it is a possibility and it may be worth a try, I must admit its not something I had considered that the crankshaft could have been rotated a full turn.

If you do turn it another full turn do be careful as if the valves will touch if at the TDC position.

Steve

Hi

It will hit the valves and do damage, it may not turn, when it comes up to the valves but can still do damage.

Its an automatic tensioner so it will move slightly as the tension on the belt changes, as the valves open and close it gives a different resistance to the turning force and as this changes the tension on the belt will alter, this can move the tensioner slightly, that is why the tensioner needs to be checked after turning the engine over 2 turns.

I hope this makes sense but do ask me any further questions.

Steve

Hi yes that is normal it won't stay in one position as it is an automatic tensioner, that acceptable.

Steve

Hi

The crankshaft pulley should be free and centralise, I think this may be the whole root of the problem, the pulley should centralise using tool No.0188-AH. which is only really a spring to keep it in place.

Do you think the crankshaft or pulley could have got burred at all?

If this is not centred it wont affect belt tension but it will affect starting.

I would check the reason for the pulley not being free on the crankshaft,

Steve

Ok, that will be good.

Steve

Hi

The pictures came through ok and are good. That doesn't look far enough out to cause any problems, it should really move but the position that is in the engine should start ok.

The only concern is that the reluctor ring behind may have moved, it shouldn't do but have you taken the sensor off and just made sure that the reluctor has not spun. this would stop the engine starting.

Steve

ok thats good, well looking at the pictures, although the gear should move and centralise its not far enough from its optimum position to cause problems and with the diagnostics confirming that the sensors are correct, I can only think that a problem did occur when the engine was originally timed up using the wrong hole.

You will need to carry out a compression test to confirm that no valve damage has occurred. That all that I can think of that may be the problem.

Steve.

P.S.

Your reply just came though as I was writing this.

Steve

Hi

Yes because your not looking for perfection but just to confirm that you have all cylinders producing a good compression. you should see all reading within 5% of each other.

Steve

OK let me know how it goes, he compression test should be good enough to show up any faults but the leak down test will show up a valve with more certainty.

Steve

Hi

Thats ok.That number 4 cylinder is slightly low, but not enough to prevent the engine from starting, I don't think the compressions are the problem.

This comes back to the valve timing or the position of the crank sensor / reluctor ring.

One of those has to be out.

Just out of interest how many miles has the vehicle done and was it running perfectly before the belt change.

Steve

I don't think a leak down test will prove much.

Just to clarify you had the engine running but it was not quite right, firstly how did the timing differ from this to the second time you fitted the belt when it started rattling? and how much did you alter the belt for the third time?

Steve

Have you got any fault codes coming up when cranking?

Steve

ok, let me know.

Steve

Hi

I have been thinking over the problem after you last message when you told me it did run initially when you replaced the cam belt and only after turning off again did it have problems. I do think you have made a mistake by keep taking the belt off as if it was running initially unless the belt was so slack that it jumped it was unlikely to be a problem with the belt timing. From the picture I can see you used paint marks to initially mark the position of the crank, but I see two different marks.

With this in mind the picture you sent me shows the belt in place and the crank bolt fitted with no reluctor ring, If this has been damaged or if the crank bolt was not properly tightened up when you initially done the job and the reluctor ring has spun slightly this will give you the problems you have. I have attached a picture of the reluctor just to confirm the part I am talking about, which i presume you have refitted when attempting to start up.

I also confirmed with a colleague that the engine would run if one tooth out.

The reason the engine starts to slow may be due to a failing battery which has been extensively used lately

Steve

Sounds like you have been doing things right, I would have thought with those compressions the engine should start ok.

Can you let me have a picture of the reluctor ring, just so I can see it?

Steve

Ok, I am not sure if your aware but the same engine is also used in the Ford Kuga, reading the Ford manual on the engine they repeat a warning about damage occurring to the reluctor ring.

This is why I am concerned that this may be the problem.

Steve

Hi

Yes but it's magnetic so you wouldn't see physical damage, I think that is why the make a point of it in there literature.

Steve

I have gone over the situation quite a few times and can't think of any other reason, if you have the timing correct that would prevent the engine from starting.

Steve

I think the instructions say not to turn it against the direction of rotation, I presume you have not done that.

Steve

Hi

Yes sorry misread that, from the picture the sprocket is very close to centre, and if that was the problem I don't believe it would have started and run when you first changed the belt, but I will admit I am concerned as to why it won't turn

Steve

Hi

You say timing was way off when you first done the job using a lug nut, but it can't have been if it run so well

I saw from the picture you sent that you marked the crank sprocket with paint, did you mark the camshaft with paint as well or just used the locking bar?

360 degree turn provided you did not hit the valves when the engine turned the full turn would still bring the engine back to the correct position.

You would have felt the pistons hit the valves when turning by hand.

Just to be clear I am also presuming that you lined the timing marks up and made our paint marks whilst the old belt was still on.

Steve

Ok, so when you now use the 8mm bar in the crankshaft and with the camshaft locked using the bar, where does the paint mark you first made sit, does this line up with either of those on the crank sprocket?

Steve

Hi

Right unfortunately we can't turn back the clock and mark the crank, but if you can remember exactly where that was, then I would try fitting the belt there.

The belt will not stretch much at all, the belts are internally strengthened and the danger is that they will break with age but they do not stretch.

Just to clarify it did start ok the first time, but 5 minutes later was a problem. There is an issue with the crank pulley not moving, but at this stage and if you can be sure you know exactly where the belt was I would put it back in that position. Then turn the engine slowly by hand to ensure that nothing will touch and try it.

As long as the valves do not touch when the engine is turned over you have nothing to loose. You now know how the tensioner should be fitted and this will rule another problem out.

I am concerned that somehow the flywheel timing pin is not locating correctly and as you have taken the belt off and replaced it so many times now, without success, I think going back to the first position would be good.

If it does start this may discount the reluctor problem, but if it doesn't now start in the original position then it could still be a damaged reluctor.

Steve

Ok, let me have the picture and I will look.

Steve

Hi

No the Aux belt doesn't need to be fitted to start it up to test.

Steve

Ok, I may be offline for a while, but will be back later in the afternoon.

Steve

Hi

So was the green line there or did you put it on, and is the green line in the position it was when you first put it together and it ran?

Steve

Someone must have done the belt before, and where that green line is it lines up with the edge of the block.

I would try it with the flywheel in that position, with the proviso that as mentioned you turn it by hand a couple of turns before trying to start it, as long as it turns smoothly with no contact then you will do no damage.

I would not try going half way (3 teeth) because that is total guesswork.

If you get it back to a state where it was running.

There is still the possibility that you are not using the correct timing hole.

Some mechanics have there own strange ways of marking..

Steve

Ok let me know,

Steve

ok

Hi Just a quick question, is your Peugeot a manual or automatic?

Steve

Ok

The automatic has different timing holes.

Picture attached.

Steve

Then if the can and crank have been lined up, then the only thing left is the reluctor, you were going to send me a picture, have you got that?

Steve

Hi

If the timing is a couple of teeth out, then it is unlikely that damage will occur, but if you have turned the engine over by hand ensuring that there is no contact then you can be assured that there will be no damage.

Steve

No if there was contact then the engine would stop, unless you forced it past the point of contact then you would do damage.

Steve

Hi

Yes one tooth on the crankshaft pulley end should be safe, but you must of course turn the engine by hand to confirm.

Steve

Providing you turn the engine slowly by hand to ensure there is no contact you will be safe.

Steve

Let me know.

Steve

Once the belt is on and correctly timed and tensioned, then after turning the engine over the holes should line up, they may be a very tiny bit out, but they should be very close.

Steve

If the distance is changing that much something must be loose, it is either the crank pulley moving on the crankshaft or the flywheel / drive plate loose on the crankshaft.

There is no other reason, if the belt is properly tensioned up. Just a quick thought you are turning the tensioner anti clockwise to tension it?

Steve

Yes the procedure is that the belt should be fitted to the camshaft sprocket and then fed on clockwise, so it is tight between the camshaft and crankshaft and any slack is then taken up between the crankshaft and camshaft by the tensioner, which should only be turned anti-clockwise to tension it. The water pump is free moving and so will just turn as required to accommodate tensioning.

The belt should be evenly tight, one side should not be slacker.

Steve

Make sure that once the teeth are located on the cam sprocket that they stay in place, you can lightly clamp the belt, I have attached a picture.

So the belt goes on the camshaft sprocket, is fed past the guide pulley and then tightly onto the crank pulley, past the water pump and round the tensioner.

Steve

Let me know, i still have concerns about the reluctor, but now I am more concerned about why the timing goes out after turning the engine over, that shouldn't happen. It may be that you are not putting the belt on tightly enough between the camshaft and the crankshaft pulley down the front.

Steve

Ok

Did the timing stay correct or does it still alter when turning the engine over two turns?

Steve

that sounds good then, it will normally need a tiny bit of adjustment to get the pin in.

Steve

A code would not necessarily come up.

The timing should not alter by the width of the pin, is the belt tight, enough?

But if the timing is changing by the width of the pin after rotating the engine the timing cannot be spot on or the belt is not tight enough.

Or the third option there is movement in the pulley.

Steve

It is when setting the timing, it should be set and stay in that position. The tension on the belt should be controlled by the automatic tensioner, this should be set as I described turning it anticlockwise till the marks align, this pointer will move slightly as the engine turns but should end up in the same position after rotating the engine.

The belt on the front side needs to be tight, if you can't get it to fit tight then you should unlock the crank and turn it back slightly, then fit the belt so that when you turn the crank into position the belt will be tight.

Steve

OK, it is important to get that first run of the belt between the cam and crank tight.

Let me know how it goes.

Steve

I am about tomorrow so should be able to get straight back to you.

Steve

Hi

If the sprocket is butting up to the right of the key way, then it must be moving. After 18 days I feel i have reached the end of any advice I can give you on this and perhaps you may need someone who can physically check the vehicle.

I will put the question back in case any other expert has a better idea.

Steve